my 6mo ds driving me to the edge with bad sleep habits. Can anyone help?

[alabasterangel]

Very long - apologies.

I'm really beginning to crack, been in floods of tears today as I just don't know how to solve DSs sleep problems which seem to be spiralling into worse, not better patterns.

DD is almost 3 and was a fab baby - slept through at 9 weeks. We very roughly followed GF routines, she was bottle fed which made this easy. She relished structure, and everything we tried she took to easily (things like swapping to beakers, dropping naps, weaning, potty training, all just very easy and a pleasure).

DS however has been a problematic sleeper from day one. BF which made a difference I believe, and always consistently fell asleep on the boob during the night and I tentatively put him back to his bed swapping the boob for a dummy (which I am now regretting, amongst other things).

Fast forward to 6 months old. He's been on formula for 2 months and weaning for 3 weeks with no dropped bottles at this stage (he's still drinking 36oz of formula plus 3 small meals, mostly still veg and fruit). He has an ordered bedtime routine along with his sister and he has his bedtime bottle just before going to bed. He goes to bed either drowsy or asleep (another bad habit) but I am trying more and more to get him to go down drowsy. We then wake him at 10pm for a dream feed to try and get him to go through the night. Again he is sparko by the end of it and goes back to his bed with no issues at all.

But at anytime between midnight and 3 he wakes, and, quite simply, will NOT go back to sleep. It makes no difference if I feed him, don't feed him, nurse him to sleep, rock, shush, pat, whatever.... nothing works with the exception of taking him into bed with me which is a no-go for several hours every night for me personally as it just means I don't sleep. He wakes us up hooting and babbling (not crying) but if we just ignore him he ramps up to crying within about 20 mins which we can't ignore as he swiftly wakes his sister up in the next room. I pick him up and cuddle him in the nursing chair and eventually he will drop off, but the minute i put him down he wakes back up flapping his arms and legs and babbling.

This performance is repeated 3, 4, 5, 6 times a night, and unless I have left the optimum amount of time to ensure he is in a properly deep sleep, he just wakes up as soon as he goes down and starts flapping his arms and crying again.

We have let him cry it out which I personally think to a degree all babies might need to do to learn to self settle, but it doesnt work - he has the stamina of a horse and can keep going forever. Tried going back after 3 mins, then 5, then 10, and also just tried leaving him. It doesn't work - we've tried it for nights on end and he just wakes his sister up who is then crying too, and is himself so worked up he's inconsolable. The more he cries, the more his sodding dummy comes out, and then he cries even more. I detest that f-ing dummy, I wish I had never started with one.

I have no idea where to go from here but currently I am really mentally suffering. I wake up shattered. I started dreading the next night as soon as I'm awake. He CAN go through the night - we have had random nights where he does sleep till 5 or 6 am (probably about once every 3 weeks or so!) so we know he is capable of doing it. Last night I slept from the 10pm dream feed till 1 when he woke me up, left him 15 minutes but he wouldn't settle despite putting the dummy back in, did the whole pick up put down thing for the best part of 2 hours, during which of course he is getting nice little catnaps in my arms but I am having to stay awake, then I tried putting him in bed with me and taking him back when he was asleep, but he woke again. In the end I had to wake DH at 4am (felt awful, as he was due up at 5 with work and had a 200 mile drive today) and he sat nursing him till he needed to get up at 5. DS eventually fell asleep in bed with me at 5.30. DD got me up at 6.30.

We can't go on like this and are desperate for some help. Does anyone have any ideas, please???

He could be waking up for the dummy, so maybe now is the time to get rid of it? We've just got rid of DS's dummy and are doing gradual retreat at the same time. He could previously self settle with it but is now having to learn all over again with it. For the first week we are sitting next to the cot and stroking him whilst he falls asleep and every time he wakes up but not picking him up. Next week we will sit next to him but not stroke and then we will gradually retreat out of the room until he is sleeping through. Alternatively you could ditch the dummy and do CC which isn't for me and it sounds as if your son wouldn't respond that well to it but it might work quicker? Alternatively you could buy a sleepy tot so that he might be able to find his dummy himself?

I'm not sure why I said alternatively twice but I'm sure you get the point!

yes, thank you. i'd be happy to ditch the dummy now as its just a pest, but we are so tired and unsure if the dummy is the cause i just dont want to make things more complicated right now? plus if it was the dummy you would think that me sitting by the cot and repeatedly putting it back would help, but it doesn't. once hes awake thats it, and he flaps his arms and shouts and kicks, dummy or not! and not sure if it could be lack of dummy that wakes him up as it falls out hours before. i check on him 20 mins after the dreamfeed and its already gone then and surely he rises into a light sleep (enough to notice its gone!) sooner than 3 hours later?

why did i ever start with one?! one handed so apologies for punctuation!

Poor you, it's so hard isn't it

DS was a shit sleeper as well. Much as you describe, though without a dummy and was bf at that age (but even with a pre-bed bottle he never slept better)

I just gave in and let him co-sleep with us. It meant I at least got some sleep, and was able to stay in bed. The constant getting up and down is so demoralising

TBH, I'd be tempted to just throw any ideas of 'getting a routine' out the window for now. He WILL sleep well, you just don't know when yet... fwiw DS improved dramatically at 1yr and now sleeps through the majority of nights at 16m. I never, ever thought he would

I wouldn't despair too much about the dummy. My DD went through a stage of repeated waking at about 6 mo and I blamed the dummy and very nearly did CC to get rid of it. I'm now glad I didn't as at 10 mo she no longer wakes in the night and settles for bed and naps very easily with the dummy. As you say, if he was waking for the dummy you'd be able to pop it back in and he'd go off to sleep. What are his naps like during the day? Do you think he could be hungry when he wakes? Have you tried not dream feeding him and just feeding when he wakes hungry - might be that he goes down much easier with a full tummy and then sleeps through til morning? Good luck and hope you manage to get some sleep soon.

I think part of the problem you've got is that your first child was such a good sleeper. Some children as just not, including your son.

Until the age of about 10mths, DS woke up every night many many times - sometimes every 30 mins/40 mins, but max sleeping time was 1.5 hours at a time. It was absolutely exhausting.

I'm sorry to say that although things have vastly improved since those days (he is now 3.5), he has slept 'through', and by that I mean to about 5am, roughly a handful of times.

I absolutely sympathise with you, really, but I think that at 6m, it's maybe your expectations that need to change. There is every possibility that things will start to get better in the next few months. Fingers crossed.

agree about the lowering expectations

also take it 'night by night' as opposed to 'he will/can/must sleep through the night' mentality. You just end up doing your own head in with the endless obsessing over wake-up times/length of time awake or asleep/time between feeds etc etc

Thanks all.

Notnotbernard - yes, have seriously considered just giving in and cosleeping but practically it would be v hard!! My DH is an ex-army-rugby-playing-built-like-a-wardrobe chap who takes up most of the bed as it is. No spare bed/room. No room in DS's tiny room for another bed. DS is a wriggler. I have to have him on my side and stay lying on my side with him (unless I misunderstand how to cosleep safely) which is near on impossible due to dull and boring back problems I have. Have considered a cosleeping cot but they are just so £+++ and also I want him in his own bed eventually and at the moment it feels like if I do that, I'll never get him out of it!

I do totally understand and appreciate that 100% sleeping through at 6m is relatively rare. Indeed I don't really expect that if I'm honest, despite the doddle that was my DD. If he was still waking for a feed, having that feed, then going back to sleep with a full tum then frankly that would be glorious compared to this. It's the hours and hours of being awake that do me in, not having one or two small night wakes.

If I do feed him he doesn't take much (so in theory isn't needing it?) and is still just as wide awake afterwards as before. If I don't feed him the result is still the same, except it is protracted by the 20 mins spent feeding him at the outset!

cbawden - day sleeps - he only has one predicatable sleep at about 10am which he has in his chair downstairs. If I try to put him in his cot for it, even if he is rubbing his eyes and thrashing his head, all hell brakes loose. He sleeps for about 40 mins. He will then ditto that probably twice more during the day. By bedtime he is exhausted - red eyed, whines and cries after his bath and practically snoozes through the last bottle. I "feel" like he doesn't get enough daytime sleep. When he does drop off I move his chair into the dining room and close the door so he isn't disturbed, but he is still a very light sleeper during the day.

Your idea of not doing the dream feed and seeing where we end up has occurred to me too - might try it tonight. Or even setting an alarm for 1am and then dreamfeeding him then instead? Does that sound mad? Feels like I am setting myself up and going backwards in a way, but I can't think of what else to try.

I'm no expert but it sounds as though your DS is overtired and that's why he's waking so frequently (I never understand why if a baby is tired they wake more - it's a nonsense but ime completely true). If I were you I would try dropping the dream feed and let him wake naturally when he's hungry. If he gets a nice long block of sleep at the start of the evening hopefully he'll go back to sleep much easier and from the sounds of things he settles well with a full tummy anyway. I would then try and concentrate on trying to improve naps (tho may be easier said than done with another DC around) - have you tried pick up put down for naps? Or if that doesn't work maybe an earlier bedtime - what time is he going to bed now?

cbawden - that thought (overtired) had flashed through my head but to an adult it doesn't make logical sense! Of course as a grown-up or even my 3 year old, if we are shattered, we just sleep longer/heavier to make up for it! I can't compute either as to how overtireness can equate to being wide awake, but if thats possible then it would correlate with his frugal daytime sleeps?

His eve bedtime is around 7.15. With the night waking dramas he can often still want to be asleep at 8.30am the next day, but his sister invariably wakes him earlier especially if he has ended up in our room. On a better nights sleep he would wake more like 7 so thus proving somehow that by being awake in the night, he is sacrificing sleep he needs IYSWIM?

We didn't do a dream feed last night. He woke himself at 12.30 and I fed him, and he was, again, a git to get back to sleep but did so eventually after 1.5hrs. He therefore went 5.5 hours before waking and then 4.5 before waking again (his sister, unfortunately, thundered down the landing shouting I suspect he would have gone longer) but it was a pleasure to wake up in my own bed without a baby there, even if it was 6.30am! Maybe this is the way to go forward and hope it wasn't just a fluke night. I'd be happy with that arrangement!

As we speak he is fighting sleep in his chair, only had about 40 mins today so far and is being a grump. Was a grotty misery over lunch and grizzled since. Just wish he would drop off! Will look up that technique..... thank you.

Hi again

Your posts do remind me of me with DS at that age - he sounds really similar. But mine would settle relatively quickly and easily after feeding. Justthat he would wake up almost hourly

We also had nowhere else to put him (2 DC in other room, no spare room). DP often buggered off to the sofa when it was really bad so at least we all got some semblance of sleep. The other thing we did was take the side of DS's cot and pushed it up against the bed, making much more space. I know you think this is simply making it even harder in the long run but my DS is now, at 16m, in his own cot, going 11h through the night without waking the majority of nights. If he does, it's pretty easy to resettle him

notnowbernard - yep, last night I told DH that if dropping the dreamfeed thing goes tits up too, then I am going to buy a cheapy 2nd hand smaller sized cot (his current one is big) and he can butcher it and take one side off and create some sort of safe non-gappy way to have this by the side of my bed. I wouldn't cosleep all the time like that, but on nights where I am knackered and he is being a sod, he could go in there if he was nonsettleable. That way in the long run maybe he would learn to go back to sleep a bit more quickly and we would all at least feel rested. Feels better having a few positive plans too....

I really know where you're at - I remember it clearly!

For me, mentally 'throwing in the towel' was quite liberating. Then, after a few months of reasonable sleep, I felt in a better position to try again to do something about establishing more of a routine (DS got horrendous again around the 1yr mark - but as he was older he responded better to sleep 'training')

Have you tried dropping the dream feed? I would for at least a week. That way you can go to bed early and you may find he sleeps until he usually does and that means you've got some good sleep and then maybe the nights won't be as bad. It may sound weird but when ever I've dropped the dream feed they naturally give it up by extending their sleep until later in the morning or just sleeping through.

I would also make sure he is have no less than 3 hours a sleep in the day and no more than five hours. I would try putting him down earlier than 10am for a nap maybe he is already over tired by then and finds it hard to drop off more easily and sleep longer.

Hi, I had a rough patch with DS at 4 months. When I insisted he had more day time naps he slept so much better. I followed the babysleepsite.com a couple of good free downloads I got from there. Good luck

Hi alabasterangel , IME too naps and night time sleep are related. The No Cry Sleep Solution is a good book I think. Have you tried lenghtening his afternoon nap by resettling him after the 40 mins are up? I sometimes have to do this with DS, although he naps frequently for 1.5 - 2 hours after lunch.The key is to catch them before they're fully awake though. DS is 9.5 months and only started to have longer naps after about 7 months.

Thanks again all.

Yes, my instincts do tell me he is lacking sleep in the day. We are also weaning at the mo which is throwing up it's own problems, a lot of which point to him being too tired to be arsed to try I'm sure - his tolerance is non-existant and I'm sure it's because he is whacked. I'm also sure it's a viscious circle - because he is too tired to take much food, he then doesn't eat enough to really podge him out. If he did that I'm sure he'd be more rested, etc, etc. Plus also his general tolerance is zero at the moment. He gets so fed up and touchy so easily - crotchety and pissed off. I quite often think this house has a pissed off Mum and a pissed off baby! I'm sure this fed-up-ness is tiredness. But if I put him down, he will not go to sleep. I can't nanny him too much in the day - my 3yo is a liability to be left more than a few mins alone, and she will not sit still and be quiet (even with tv on she will shout/comment/sing etc!) so the poor sod can't have the luxury of me spending ages fussing over him it's just impossible to do it.

The only time I have managed to get him to sleep longer in the day was to cart his chair upstairs with him asleep in it, darken his room subtley, and move the rest of us to the other side of the house and make sure no noise or disturbance goes near him. It's so odd - with DD I could go into her room while she was asleep and put laundry away; this one wakes with the slightest of noises. Absolute killer one night when I finally got him down, went to leave/creep out of the room and one of my knees clicked and he woke back up!! Frustration!!!!

Total daytime sleep today?? 80 minutes. Not enough I feel!

I will try that website and look that book up. I did pick it up in the library actually, might see if it is still there when we go tomorrow....

I feel your pain. My DS wakes at night hearing the floorboards creak if I need the loo!

Also just a suggestion but maybe for a more relaxed (but messier) approach to weaning give up on purees and start baby led weaning?

yep Nelly - have ditched the purees today. Was so nervous about BLW but he did gum to death 4 mini breadsticks and a couple of pasta twists before he got tired and peeved and wanted out of his chair. Feel happy to carry on after that though! Shame as the carrots had just cooked and was going to offer him a couple of batons..... still tomorrow is another (messy) day - was planning chopped boiled eggs for lunch! The only puree (as such) he would eat with enthusiasm was porridge or rice, and BLW seems to be the easiest option as he can please himself a bit more...... might still stick to the porridge for brekkie though as he really seemed to like that.

But of course he needs to have the energy to do it...... sigh

DH is away working tonight (I just told him on the phone, he is a lucky sod with a hotel room and peace all night and a yummy cooked breakfast tomorrow! He agreed!) but the upside is that if DS does play up later, he has enough room to come in with me with less of a squeeze. Going up now to get some z's while I have the chance.....