to wonder at what point you need to get in specialist help to deal with behaviour?

[working9while5]

Genuinely wondering this. I have only one dc who is a mere 2 years old so I don't feel I have a grip on what's normal "bad behaviour" and what's not.

Was at SIL's at the weekend and she has 3. Eldest is 5 but she seems really out of control to me. She spent a good 30-40% of the weekend screaming/roaring/shouting and/or being very physically violent with her siblings and being put into (and running out of) time out. She was physically locked into her room at one point because she was kicking and scratching her mother and left bruises on her arms from swinging at her/pinching her. She walked up to her 3 year old sister who was playing with my son and literally, out of nowhere, caught her by the hair and banged her head on the wall. She was trying to frighten my son by going up to him and screaming in his face and then laughing when he cried.

My inlaws are not soft on her, they cancelled her birthday party this year because of behaviour like this and they box up access to her favourite toys when she carries on like this and she has to earn them back with good behaviour. She missed out on lots of treats over the weekend for this behaviour but also was given lots of praise and attention for anything she did well when calm. They seem to be doing all the things that you would expect you would be told to do but it doesn't seem to make much difference?

It's not my business what they do so I'm not asking this in terms of giving them advice, but dh and I were discussing it and I said that if our child ever behaved like that and those measures weren't working I would consider seeking professional help. They seem at their wit's end and she is ruling the roost. He was horrified, he says that it's just one of those things she will "grow out of" and that it all started because of sibling rivalry when her sister was born.

We are due dc2 in six months and I do not want to think that this behaviour is the sort of thing we will accept or tolerate as "normal". Am I just really naive?

At 5 years old, is she at school? Is there any sign of this behaviour there? If there was the class teacher would speak to the SENCO and all kinds of assessments, ed psych appointments would follow.

It looks as though they are doing all the right things at home. I don't agree with your DH saying its something she will grow out of. But I have a morbid dread of sibling problems, I am an only child and I only have, and only want, one DC.

Have the parents spoken to their GP? It can be possible that behaviour like this can have physical causes - I was thinking of undiagnosed diabetes for example.

SIL is a GP herself so I think all of that would be in hand and I don't think there are any issues at school at the moment, nor were there at nursery. She does well at school and gets invited to lots of parties etc, has some friends in the neighbourhood.. it's very much house angel/street devil. There are no concerns about any aspect of her development other than this behaviour. It's very much around sibling rivalry although they seem to deal very fairly with them from what I can see... I know when the middle one was a tiny baby this older child used to bite/scratch her a lot for attention but surely that is normal? How do you get from that to this, when the parents seem to be doing their level best to be on top of things?

Street angel/house devil I mean!

I have four children. Ds2 was very put out when I came home from the hospital with not one, but two babies. He had been told we were having twins, but at 18 months didn't really understand the concept. We had some difficulties, partly because (although we didn't know then), he has AS. However, with strict rules in place, these had been overcome by the time the twins were six/seven months old. Although one does have a small scar where a video case was thrown at her!
This is not normal behaviour, under any circumstances. It does sound as though the parents are doing all the right things, however, it may be a good idea to get the school involved too, just to support what is happening at home.

My DN was exactly like this at 5, indeed really from the age of 3. The violence was really almost scary - actually, it was scary.

Fave activities included surprising people by kicking them in the head while crouching on the stairs in wait, screaming in children's faces, biting, punching and launching commando-style attacks on unsuspecting strangers (inc animals.) He waited till his pregnant mother sat down to kick at her belly as hard as he could. All the time.

it wasn't a phase and it wasn't "normal". But when he started school, the school were brilliant and SENCO took action. It worked, and we are eternally grateful. However, if you don't think the behaviour is not being repeated at school, you may not have that option.

Sounds horrendous! I have 2 dd's, the eldest is 4, and the youngest is 2, there's 21mths between them. It must be hard with 3 children, but I would be absolutely horrified if my eldest behaved like this on a consistent basis, and it sounds like it is happening regularly. Yes, I would be asking for professional help.

good 30-40% of the weekend screaming/roaring/shouting and/or being very physically violent with her siblings. - We get screaming/roaring/shouting, but it tends to be at certain trigger points, like overtiredness at bedtime. Or when she's very anxious/insecure about something.

being put into (and running out of) time out. - Rarely need to use time out now. Maybe once in a couple of months.

She was physically locked into her room at one point because she was kicking and scratching her mother and left bruises on her arms from swinging at her/pinching her. - Wow. No. (Not yet anyway! - unless they go through some sort of personality change at 5?? Hope not.) I would be so shocked if dd1 this, as that would be completely overstepping the boundaries.

She walked up to her 3 year old sister who was playing with my son and literally, out of nowhere, caught her by the hair and banged her head on the wall. Omg - dd1 would never do this to dd2. Sure they bicker and squabble, but they also play well and care about each other. I did a lot of prep with dd1 before dd2 was born - we read "I am a Big Sister" books, talked about it, even took her to a scan appt. When dd2 arrived, in the early days there was a lot of "Look, she's watching you! She loves you and wants to be just like you!" and getting her involved in nappy changes etc. Now, we say "good sharing!" and praise co-operation type things. "That was very kind of you." etc. They still fight and bicker over things, but it's a poke here, a slap there, in the heat of arguments - nothing major, and certainly no unprovoked attacks out of the blue.

She was trying to frighten my son by going up to him and screaming in his face and then laughing when he cried. I've never seen dd1 behave like that to any child tbh, not even to her sister. If she did that to anyone's child I'd be furious and she would see it on my face. I would get down to her eye level straight away and tell her that it's NOT ok to do stuff like that, and there would certainly be time out.

My inlaws are not soft on her, they cancelled her birthday party this year because of behaviour like this and they box up access to her favourite toys when she carries on like this and she has to earn them back with good behaviour.

She missed out on lots of treats over the weekend for this behaviour but also was given lots of praise and attention for anything she did well when calm

I don't know, I wonder if your inlaws are, if anything, too punitive with taking things away, and not giving enough actual quality time or something, which could be easily missed with 3 young kids to juggle.

I don't know, I'm no expert. All I know is, if my eldest started behaving like that I would be concerned - but then she hasn't hit 5 yet, so maybe I'm in for a shock!

No you are not being naive, it does sound like your niece has an extreme form of sibling rivalry and is acting out on some unhappy emotions.

What you describe is quite shocking behaviour for a 5 year old, that would not be tolerated at school and indeed seems she would not behave like this at school. It is reserved for the family environment where perhaps she is unhappy and there are unresolved issues in terms of how she feels within the family re attention/love/sense of where she belongs?

I think if this was happening at home for me I would want to get professional help but I would hope that we could sort it out before it got to this stage. My two, 5 and 3 are very good generally these days.

I think you have to be very careful in this situation not to label the child as the one with the problem, often their behaviour when it is like this only in the family environment is reflective of deeper issues within the family dynamic. 5 year olds can't express complex emotions too well so use their behaviour to demonstrate stuff going wrong. "She is ruling the roost". Well that says a lot. She can't be allowed to. That's far too scary for a 5 year old. They need to take charge.

Just out of interest what did SIL do when she was so violent to her sister?