not coping v well with 3.5 yo DD

[flippedflop]

My DD has always been high maintenance, spirited, difficult, whatever you want to call it. My DS arrived when she was 18 months which she found difficult at the time. Now they're the best of friends and she wouldn't be without him.

Her behaviour over the last couple of weeks has been ridiculous. Everything is a battle, the usual wilful stuff around not wearing a coat, or doing anything I ask her to. The big thing just now is whenever I want us to leave anywhere. Yesterday we were at the playpark and she refused to leave which ended up in me dragging her away from the park and then all the way home. She refused to walk. I was in tears with frustration at her. I put her in her room as soon as we got home and she fell asleep after about 40 minutes. I needed the time out.

Today we had a music class then had lunch out. Everything was going well and I was pleased we were having some fun. Then it all went wrong again when it was time to leave. Not putting coat on became a huge drama and then back to not walking, trying to run away from me next to a road, annoying her brother and then hitting me when I picked her up to try and stop her from doing it. Again, I'm in tears.

Both her and DS are in nursery this afternoon. I have told her that she will not be meeting up with her friend tomorrow afternoon as planned and to be honest, I'm thinking about putting her in nursery tomorrow afternoon as I don't have the strength for her. It seems like a cop out though and I feel like a bad mum. I have tried positive parenting but it's not working with her. I feel like I need to change tactics and show her she doesn't get good stuff if she isn't behaving. Her behaviour is not acceptable and is stressing me out. I feel sad that she is sad and crying in frustration and anger a lot of the time. We can't seem to have any fun together. I feel sad that I'll look back on her early years as being a horrible time.

I wonder where I've gone wrong. I look at my DS though, and he couldn't be more different. He's happy and loves to do most things without the drama. He's 23 months though so this may change soon enough. I'm also 18 weeks pregnant with DC3 so don't have the normal energy reserves required to deal with her. What can I do? Any advice? Should I put her in nursery tomorrow afternoon or is that just running from the problem? I also said I would be having her chocolate from her advent calendar tomorrow so I'm going to have to follow it through. But it all feels a bit bah humbug. I feel guilty for punishing her like this. I just want to have fun with my baby girl.

i think that when you are pregnant with another baby, you panic about the ones you have already got being too babyish and you try to hurry them along.
she's still very little - as you say. i would definitely pick your battles, ie, don't worry about the coat - it's not that cold at the moment anyway, if she doesn't want to wear it - don't put yourself or her through the stress of making her.
Leaving somewhere when they don't want to go - i bribe shamelessly. it works. perhaps this is something you swore you would never do, if you don't feel comfortable with it, you could always try a sticker chart, using more the carrot than the stick will make you feel less of a bag. also, if at all possible, leave enough time for her to get fed up and want to go of her own voilition, can't always be done, but when you can, do it.

you are absolutely not running away from the problem by sending her to nursery for an extra afternoon, it will do both of you good. everybody needs space from their dc, everybody, not just you. you have got a lot on your plate, so cut yourself a bit of slack.

try to reconnet a bit with her, just do something silly and fun - even a pillow fight, or a game of hide and seek, perhaps if possible spend a bit of time together without ds.

relax and be the mum you want to be.
good good luck and congratulations

Well said baskingseals.

I find giving my DCs 5minute warnings that we're about to do something helps. Then some times a 2 minute one to remind them.

Also before we even go into the playbarn I say to them that when I say its time to go home I do not want any fuss. This works well for my DS.

Hi, I meant to reply earlier but didn't have time -would just like to second what basking seals said and add I few more comments.

I have children about the same age as yours, and definately can relate to the feeling of wanting to have fun with DD1 (3.4), then feeling like it's almost her fault for "spoiling things" by being difficult! We went through a phase recently of fierce tantrums, almost certainly related to a period of change for DD1 -probably like you and your pregnancy (congrats, by the way!). After reading up a bit (including Mumsnet, bien sur), here are the things that have helped:

Sillyness -as suggested by baskingseals. Can diffuse potentiel tantrums.

Sympathising -"oh poor DD1, are you disappointer/cross/tired?" etc. Sounds like indulgence, but she often perks up/goes along with what you want her to do/etc. when she knows you've taken into account her feelings.

If a tantrum occurs, play it down as much as possible, like it doesn't really matter (and it doesn't -she's still so little). Offer cuddles to help her calm down. Afterwards, when she's in that sniffly, slightly sheepish state (!) we have a chat about why it was naughtly to run away/ not do as told etc.

Don't bother with "punishments", apart from "natural consequences". By the latter I mean a brief time out, or "oh dear what a shame you were having a tantrum, DD2 and I were having fun dancing/ looking at that dog over there...". Punishments that are too far from the original "crime" (eg hours later or next day) don't work at this age, imo. The child either doesn't relate them to the naughtiness, or thinks it isn't fair, or it encourages them to think of themselves as 'a naughty girl' (risk of negative cycle). In your example, you could say "I did tell you that you couldn't have you advent calendar chocolate, but as you've been good this morning..." ;-) Water under the bridge, and all that..!

Anyway, sorry for going on for so long! Good luck, and don't worry too much. As to the nursery -go for it. You are pregnant and have another very young child. She is of an age to benefit from and enjoy it. All the best.

I agree with the advice about picking your battles, absolutely. Giving them a "guided" choice (ie you're happy enough with either outcome) is often successful (DD2, nearly 3, regularly refuses her coat, so I give her the choice of "cardigan underneath it or not? and the ruse often works: it's all about control)
Signposting time to leave is good, 10, 5, 2 and 1 minute warnings.
While you do generally have to carry through on a punishment, there might also be times for backing down (maybe over the choc, if she is angelic in the morning?) which can reset the "default" interaction from angst to calm.
If putting her in nursery tomorrow will get you some rest and more energy to deal with the weekend, then do it.
Don't forget though, at 3.5, she won't remember a time before little brother, or indeed her feelings when he arrived, but may well be picking up pregnancy with DC3? If you have told her (or she has picked up on it from someone else, then lots of books for her to explore feelings might be a help (There's a house inside my Mummy, My little brother and the cough, Sophie and the New Baby).
Good luck and remember, she is still your baby underneath!

You poor thing being 18 weeks pregnant and 2 under 4 must be exhausting!

I have a spirited 3.5 year old dd too and sometimes I just want to run away from her.

Do you have any family nearby that can help to give you a break?

Or have parents an hour or so away she could stay with over the weekend to get spolit by?

Rather than dragging her home, could you try standing on the pavement saying 'we'll stand here until you're ready to walk nicely'? Would that work?

Agree about picking immediate consequences - a party the next day seems ages away to her - too far to bother changing her behaviour!

Please don't ask yourself where you went wrong. Nearly all toddlers go through phases like this!

I have a 3.2 yr old DS who has been more "difficult" than anything else since he turned 1. I am also 28 wks pregnant with DC2 so I can totally sympathise.

You've had lots of good advice already and the only thing I would like to add is that it sounds like you are letting her see how much her behaviour is upsetting you. I know "letting" her see sounds harsh as you are no doubt exhausted and you just can't help reacting the way you do - I do this regularly! BUT I have found that BY FAR the biggest trigger to a situation escalating with my DS is me getting obviously upset/angry about it. DS just seems to feed off my anger/frustration/distress and he gets more and more wound up and we end up with world war 3 over the smallest things. Some days I am just so tired/fed up that I can't help myself and I snap at him/get upset too quickly and then the whole day goes down the tubes. But whenever I can, I catch myself in time and stay super calm (on the surface at least!!) and just wait for him to calm down. It really, really works. For example if he is refusing to walk, like your DD, I just explain calmly that I can't carry him but I am happy to stand where we are all afternoon if he wants to. He makes a fuss for a while then gives in. I am also a big fan of distraction ie talking about what nice things we're going to do when we get home etc (this is often shameless bribery too as baskingseals said ie watch some tv, eat a nice snack etc).

I'd also second the advice about picking your battles. If she doesn't want to put on her coat then unless it's teeming rain or something then let her go outside without it. She'll soon put it on once you're out there and she's cold. My DS did exactly that this morning - it was freezing but I couldn't be bothered with an argument. 30 seconds after leaving the house he happily let me put on his coat, hat & gloves!

Also agree with not punishing her by cancelling a playdate the next day - by tomorrow she will have no idea why she can't play with her friend anymore and it might well turn into another drama - my DS really can't connect a consequence to bad behaviour unless it happens pretty much immediately. But if you do cancel the playdate then feel free to put her in nursery - everyone needs a break! Don't cancel the playdate and keep her at home - would be more of a punishment for you then her with the way you are feeling at the moment.

Lastly - do try not to feel bad. You have not "gone wrong" anywhere! She is 3 and everything is a drama. You are particularly tired/emotional at the moment. It WILL get better. Good luck!

Oh thank goodness, someone else's toddler hates leaving places. DD1 will fling herself onto the ground and HOWL bloody murder whenever we try and take her home from playdates/the park/anywhere. It makes you wonder what exactly is so terrible about me/my house that my DD wails like I am ruining her life when it is time to go back. She's also incredibly fussy about who takes her to the bathroom (she took longer than her brother to potty train and we've only just properly mastered big girl knickers). She wants her uncle or, if situation is really dire, daddy is acceptable but never mummy. It just feels like she always picks other people over me and makes me feel like I'm a shit mum.

Always give warning before you leave, if she still refuses try not to get stressed! If she's refusing to move just sit next to her and sing songs with your DS or something. I had to do this for over an hour once when I was nannying a little boy but he only ever did it twice and the second time was only 20 minutes. For the running away explain to her before you go out what you expect from her. If she caries on running when you shout stop, explain that she has to hold your hand for 2 minutes, carry on doing this until she gets it. I was having a nightmare nannying two boys who would constantly run off in different directions, it took less than a week for them to stop doing it when I used this tactic. Try to always be consistent.

I wouldn't feel guilty about putting her in nursery occasionally to give yourself a break.

Thanks so much for some great advice. It really is lovely to hear from other mums who have had the same experience. I always feel like my DD is the 'worst behaved' out of all her little friends. I hate to think negatively of her because she's still my baby!

I have done the countdown thing with her but it always comes down to crunch time. She won't budge and I have to find a way around it. I do normally go with the wait it out tactic and talking about what good things we are going to do when we leave wherever we may be. I'm definitely not above a good bribe and normally have chocolate buttons to hand. I didn't have any yesterday though and DS had a dirty nappy and I didn't want him to get sore with it so really wanted to leave.

I decided after some relaxing time yesterday afternoon to give it another go today, be positive and not put her in nursery. I did cancel her playdate because there would definitely be some form of battle and I just can't face it. We went to the zoo. Usual drama leaving the house, I didn't stress about the coat but she didn't resist so much about it. My DS was the problem today. He moaned all morning, really whiney, didn't want to walk, didn't want in the pushchair and only wanted carried. We had only been there an hour and I snapped, burst into tears as DD had taken her boots off for the umpteenth time and my DS was howling after wedging him into the buggy. Ah what a lovely family trip out we had! I called my DH sobbing my heart out and just felt so out of control, it was quite scary.

This is so not me. I'm (normally) able to keep a lid on and be relatively calm about things and take a step back. I'm just biting at everything now and getting so upset. I can only presume it must be hormones from pregnancy. My DH is worried about me. I'm having most of tomorrow off to go for a swim, a bit of shopping and then meet them in town to do some nice Christmas stuff. I haven't been like this in either of my last 2 pregnancies but I guess I've never had the challenge of dealing with 2 toddlers who love to push my buttons just now.

I had said to DH yesterday that I would like to take DD out and have some one on one time, maybe decorate a christmas bauble or something but I think I need the me time more. Maybe on Sunday I'll feel more like it. I'd be so happy if we could just do something nice together. I think I'm probably having too high expectations of having some perfect time together which isn't helpful.

I'll definitely try out all your suggestions. I need something to focus on other than my reaction. If I have a plan, then I won't feel so helpless.

Thanks for the support, all your kind words have honestly made me cry. I've always been fiercely independent myself (no surprise my DD is too!) and I find it very difficult to ask for or accept help. I feel like I'm cracking up but I hope (to quote a mumsnet mantra), that 'this too shall pass'

tinyarmy I feel your pain. Maybe we should start up our own support group! Its nuts isn't it? Feeling like a shit mum seems to be the way of things just now. I only hope that in a couple of years time we'll be able to offer some wonderful advice having got through the other side!

flippedflop this definitely sounds like your hormones giving you a run for your money. Hormones on top of being especially exhausted from having two young children and being preggers.

I just learnt that it is possible to have pre-natal depression. Not saying you are depressed but do be aware that it exists.
I hope you get some rest and some time off this weekend.

bumbums I've read about prenatal depression on here. I do feel out of control but have moments of real positivity (normally when the DCs have gone to bed!). I'm keeping an eye on myself and will see how the next couple of weeks go. It also doesn't help its the depths of winter and short days up here in Scotland. I normally feel a bit low around this time anyway. Whenever I do feel a bit down, I know I need to get out and do some exercise. Really looking forward to some time out tomorrow. I think I need to cut myself some slack as someone mentioned up thread. I haven't really been doing that.

Ugh, my niece and nephew just left about an hour ago and it has been a nonstop screamfest from DD1. I have given up and put on Fraggle Rock to calm her down. I have been told that I am "yucky" and "poo poo" and had my hair roundly pulled. Just want to curl up on the sofa and weep but can't as DC are all in the family room with me.

thank god! ds1 has been just horrible lately. ds2 is 9 weeks so i can see why. he also refused to walk home from pre-school last week, i waited it out as long as i could but baby needed feeding, so i had to drag him along, with him screaming. a lovely old lady stopped and told him off for me then winked and said 'we've all been there dear' i then cried as she sounded just like my Nan who died a few months ago. I've decided at far as possible i ignore ds1 if being silly, literally turning my back on him and walking off, although some days i just can't stay calm enough!

When do they generally grow out of this stage?

DD is exactly like this, to the point where I dread taking her anywhere.

When I collect her from nursery, she seems to be the only one who struggles to get free of my hand, screams on the ground and if she manages to escape for a second...races off straight down the street with me running behind shouting STOP!!! whilst ignoring me completely.

I manage to keep hold of her 99% of the time, but I dread picking her up or leaving anywhere since it's a full scale battle of epic proportions every single time.

Feeling so much better today after some time out. I was really excited about seeing them all this afternoon. DH said they were just lovely all morning. Typical! Not only did my DD wear a cardigan, coat, boots but also volunteered to wear a hat and gloves and ASKED for a scarf. They're unbelievable!

dribbleface - this public crying is difficult isn't it? I hate appearing to have lost control in front of others. Sometimes the kindness of strangers is so unexpected, and it catches me off guard too.

littlemisssarcastic - DD isn't as bad about running off as she used to be. She still does it but not as much. One time she ran across a road and she was doing it because she thought it was funny. I pulled out one of the Littlelite backpacks that she hadn't used for months and months. I made her wear it all the way home. I didn't drag her and let her cry it out every time she refused to walk. She hated to be treated like a baby. It doesn't really work anymore though, but it did get her out of it being an automatic habit. She has a bit more road sense now, which is a huge relief. I'm thinking about trying out a reward chart for leaving places. I've got one from ELC so we just need to start using it. Might be an idea for you too?

tinyarmy - hope you're feeling better today. Do you ever get time out?

flipped - really pleased you feel better, it's not escaping having time away from them. i think when you've got children depending on you for their every need, your first respsonsibility is to yourself, because if you've had enough, then the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. it's the opposite of selfish, it is necessary and vital to the well-being of your family.

i think you possibly have high expectations of yourself. you could not pay me to take 2 children under 4 to the zoo on my own. i'm not saying you shouldn't, but just be aware that is is not something i would not even contemplate. I have 3 dc, 9, 4 and 2. my aims for the day run along the lines of just being relieved that they're still breathing at bedtime.

i wonder if you are worried about coping when the baby arrives. i promise you it will not be how you think it is, it will be a lot better. you will be fine. if this is a background worry,try to get rid of it, and just think to yourself, that it will all be okay, becaused it will.

flippedflop I'm glad you are feeling better too.

My DD is 3.4 and tbh, I am just relieved to get through each day at the moment.

I went through this with DS, who was 3 while I was pregnant with DD. Our relationship really deteriorated - I found he battled everything and we really struggled.

It became clear to us that he was actually tired all the time. He's now 4.5 and still benefits from a nap sometimes, and looking back I feel that lots of the difficult behaviour was probably down to him not getting enough rest. He's still a pain in the arse now if he's had a bad night!

I think control was a big thing too. He fought for it and one of my biggest failings as a parent is that I am too controlling. I think being able to say "ok, you can go without a coat" is a really helpful thing. Yes, there will be consequences, but they have to learn that for themselves, and no amount if telling them will get through. If DS mucked around when walking with the CM she would just go straight home again immediately. She said she only ever had to do it twice.

Some great advice I was given by someone here was to make a sticker chart but for me. I got some snazzy stickers and set myself the target of giving him 7 a day, so I had to find 7 things to reward him for each day. It brought lots of positivity back into our relationship.

To be honest I still find him difficult but I have unreasonably high expectations and I am far too controlling. The problems in our relationship are mine, not his. Seeing that has helped me treat him much more fairly, although I'm not saying that is the case for you, it is worth considering whether the strain of pregnancy has affected your perspective a bit. It certainly did for me.

baskingseals - that made me laugh! If only I did get paid for it. Yes, whenever I have a bit of a meltdown, the first thing I say to my DH is "how am I going to cope when there's 3 of them!". I had the same worry when I was pregnant with DS but had no idea how different it would be with 2 of them. Surely, there can't be the same difference going from 2 to 3 though.

ohbugrit - you talking about being controlling is ringing alarm bells. My parents were controlling (something I have only realised since becoming a parent). I definitely don't want to become that parent but to be honest I think I've maybe been erring on the side of being a bit too free wheeling. I felt a bit guilty when DS came along as she wasn't getting to be a baby for as long as I would have liked (she was 18 months). I think I'm making more of an effort to set some boundaries now that she's getting a bit older and probably me needing a bit more control before the baby comes. I hope that's not making me controlling. I'd like to not feel quite so helpless and out of control at times. I love the idea of a sticker chart for me. She's not a nightmare all the time, and I do need to focus on that more.

You've had some great advice already, and you've got a lot on your plate. Don't set your standards too high, parenting is not how it is portrayed in magazines, on TV etc, and 3 year olds are supposed to be like your DD. You're not doing anything wrong, and my dcs don't seem to remember our worst days when they were all tiny together.

One more tip about getting a reluctant toddler to leave with less fuss. When they say they want to stay, play along with the idea.e.g. 'oh you don't want to go? You like it here so much? You really want to stay here until bedtime? You wish you lived in the park /soft play? I wish we could stay too, for ever and ever but we have to go in 5 minutes so choose one last thing to play on before we go.. Next time we come who shall we bring? What shall we play on next time? etc.

It's loosely based on the 'how to talk' books, where you validate their feelings. It won't work on all dcs, but it helped with ours.