Sibling rivalry -EXTREME- I am at the end of my tether.

[FrauHolle]

My DD1 is 3 years old, DD2 is 14 month old, they are 23 months apart.

My eldest DD stalks the younger one, trips her up, hits her, bites her, takes her toys, scratches and pushes her. Yesterday she put a pillow on DD2's face and every time I jump to intervene, she tries to be nasty on a daily basis, only my intervention or having them separately will prevent actual injuries.

4 months ago we had another DD and both sisters are lovely with her, the eldest will play nicely and sing and entertain the baby...but never to her middle sister.

DD2 is a delight, funny, cuddly and it pains me to see how she gives DD1 a wide berth just to make sure she doesn't get anywhere near her. I am so sad, I have clearly messed up and it is stressful and tense every time my eldest is around.

I find my eldest such hard work, she is a highly sensitive child, very advanced (even the doctor commented on it) and sweet and clever but always nasty to DD2.

I am sick of the stress, nothing works, I have encouraged more play, given rewards for good behaviour, sticker charts and positive reinforcements, then tried smacking, yelling, I am cracking, I can't take the fighting.

Please help me, I will probably have to go see a psychiatrist with my eldest, she is driving me insane. It is clearly jealousy but what can I do.

She has been like this with DD2 from Day 1, I can never leave them alone, she will harm her. There is never any kindness. She says things like DD2 is not my sister, I don't like DD2. Can we sell DD2? Can we take DD2 to the police?

PS: My DD1 is very popular in kindergarten, no issues with other children, has lovely friends and is bilingual, very alert and sociable.

Just an observation from your post but do you have much positive praise/interaction for dd1 or is it a case of refereeing fights?

I can see how you might be at your wits end but firmly discouraging her and praising what she does do well rather than smacking might work better. I say that as I could have been dd1 (same age gap with sis) and I think I just learned to expect to be told off and took on board a view that I didn't like my sis and fighting was the norm as was being told off. There wasnt much encouragement the other way (not that I can't see why mothers end up like that) but maybe a different approach might have had another outcome.

Also although your post is about dd1 does dd2 engage at all in this? I am not blaming her but ime there is usually 2 way interaction (even if one side Doing most of it) so need to be consistent with both girls.

Dd1 clearly has lots of good things about her and loves dd3 so maybe build on that.

My DS who is 3yrs and DD 15 months, is similar. They've never played well together. DS is always trying to snatch stuff off her and won't let her play with anything. Although he is a bit better with the hitting and pushing recently, he used to hit her or push her every chance he had. I use to carry her around the house doing stuff to avoid this, as , as soon as I put her down, he would he like a bee to honey and push her over. or whack her over the head with a toy. I have shouted and screamed at him, smacked him a couple of times too, which I felt so bad about and guilty for days after.

I think your DD1 is jealous like you said, and was also the case with my DS. I now make an effort to spend more time with him alone (I even took him away for the day this weekend) and I have noticed that his behaviour towards his sister is much better. Although it's not totally happy families as he still does grab stuff off her and fights over toys and does push or hit her with something at least once a day. And DD is starting to get her own back now. The other day we noticed her stamp on his foot when he wouldn't move out of the way of her toy pram. He was gob smacked! Didn't do anything in retaliation though.
He can be good with her. HE brings her things sometimes, says he loves her and tried to "help" bring her to the dinner table and offer food and even tried to feed her.

So yeah...is there any chance you could spend some one to one time with your DD1?
Although with a 4 month old DD (OMG...you are crazy!) it might be hard work.
H

First off, this isn't particularly extreme (don't know if that helps) - you are not alone! Violence towards younger siblings is perfectly normal and to be expected - the way toddlers behave with other babies is no guide whatsoever because they understand that they're not yours and they're going home at the end of the day.

We had a similar situation with DD and DS - there is 18 months between them and from birth she would hit him with anything available, pinch him, poke his eyes, bite him in the head - anything she could think of. We started to use timeouts when he was about three months and no longer living in the sling so she had more access. If you restrict timeout as a punishment for violence then it is more effective - I wouldn't use anything else like the naughty step etc. I would also dial right back on punishments for anything else. Basically we allowed most behaviour to slide but violence towards her brother was met with instant putting in another room without any word other than TIMEOUT. She could come out when she was prepared to say sorry. It's taken a long time but she is better with him now and I can leave them alone together.

It's interesting that she's fine with your baby, though - perhaps perceived as less of a threat. Maybe make a big thing of the differences between her and her middle sister and stress how much you love her for what she is?

My DD1 is 3.8 and DD2 is 15 months.

My DD1 hates/loathes/detests DD2. It is all jealousy - its been like this since DD2 was born. DD2 is lovely.
DD1 is generally a loving, bright and friendly girl, lots of friends at nursery.

I think you are really over-thinking it and expecting too much from DD1. She doesn't have the emotional skills to process her jealous feelings. She also doesn't really understand hurting another person yet.

I think it feels so disappointing because the thought of sisters being close and friendly is lovely.

Just keep taking deep breaths and repeat "this too shall pass!"

I think that you have probably expected too much from DD1 from the start. She was very much a baby when DD2 was born and as far as she can see her position was taken. DD3 isn't taking anything from her, from her point of view.

I have a 20month gap and it was very tempting to treat them as a pair, same bedtimes etc. The situation improved when we started treating them differently. e.g. DS2 had his own bedtime story and went to bed first and DS1 had a slightly later routine. It took up more time but was worth it.

Thank you for writing and giving advice!

Gigondas: I do praise her for all the small, nice things she does like share a treat with DD2, bring her a toy or applaud her for things well done or dressing herself. However, despite all the positive praise no less than 2 minutes later she is at DD2 again, taking a toy, hitting her, stalking her.

Life does not revolve around DD1 and I simply can't change that fact.

I took her to London for a weekend away before the new baby came, she gets taken to restaurants after the younger ones go to bed, my mother has her at times in the afternoon. We have a housekeeper/nanny that cares for DD2 and the smallest baby so my eldest gets special cuddles.

Choceyes, OMG! It's exactly the same here!! Like bee to honey, very apt description. I feel my DD1 is seeking the confrontation with DD2.
I'm waiting for DD2 to hit back or at least stand her ground (go girl!).

Ilovedaintynuts, you are partially right. DD1 does know she is being naughty but doesn't seem to understand what exactly is the problem. Her problem is DD2 whereas it is her behaviour towards her middle sister that lands her in trouble. I spoke to the doctor today and she advised me to be very firm with her but not go on about it and not to smack. The 'pillow' incident should not be tolerated at all she said.

Exoticfruits, yes I can see your point re the jealousy and DD1 feeling sidelined and dethroned. I am just at my wits' end and tired from the constant fighting. I am sad that DD2 feels she needs to evade DD1 at all cost because she knows her older sister is so nasty towards her. I am sick of my eldest ruling the roost and being so malicious. None of my friends have sibling fights like this.

It will pass, no doubt, I just wondered if there is any way to press fast forward...

I don't think that it is much consolation, but I have nephews with a similar age difference and they could never be left alone in the same room and the younger one was actually scared of the older one. When the younger one reached 15yrs the older one suddenly decided he wasn't too bad and now they actually do things together e.g. the older one is at university and invited the younger one to visit him.
No answers for the moment though.

exoticfruits, I pray and hope I won't have to wait THAT long or I will surely go crazy within the next 3 years...

I did say it wasn't much consolation! I think that it may help when the eldest goes to school.

My DD sometimes flinched when DS went past, and even if he only brushed past her she would cry, as she'd become so sensitive to his actions. At one point my DH said that if it was an adult hurting her like this, there would be serious repurcussions and it pained him to have DD being hurt like this. DS was never hurt like this, so why should DD have to go through it? Made me feel really horrible. I wore DD in a sling most of the time till she started crawling at 10 months. At least I knew she was safe and secure there!

Although like I said, things are much much better now. He only fights with her once or twice a day now...a big improvement. So hang in there, it will get better soon. Also now DD loves going up to DS and hugging him. Her face lights up when she sees him. First thing she does in the morning is go to his room looking for him, it's so cute! So your DD2 will not remember the fights and she will look up to her big sister in the future...I hope!

Having said that...my friend who has 2 sons, aged 3 and 5, fight like cats and dogs still. The older one doesn't even let the younger one into his room. She is fed up of all the refereeing she has to do.

OP I feel your pain. Dd1 is 3.7 yo and dd2 is 15 mo, and we had a few nightmarish months over the summer when dd1 was constantly hitting and pushing dd2 and pulling her hair. I too smacked a couple of times and shouted and did the naughty step and felt v guilty.

I don't know if any of the following cured the problem (I kind of think pre-school did that) these things worked for me, at least some of the time: - empathising with dd1 and her frustrations, saying "You were angry with dd2 because she touched your toys", and telling her it's normal to be angry and you understand that. You could say to your dd1 that it's ok to feel she'd like her sister not to exist sometimes and "validate" her emotions, to use a cringey word.

• telling dd1 to hit a teddy or angry cushion when she felt angry and like lashing out at dd2.
• role playing with dd1's teddies hitting each other and crying and feeling sad and then being kind and making up
• a sticker chart with photos of dd2 and mummy and daddy and grandparents (she was being pretty horrible to us all, ha ha!) I explained about being kind, loving and gentle, talked about love and what it is, and then every day she got a sticker for each person if she was kind and gentle to and at the end of the week she got a toy. A couple of times she was HORRIBLE and had said toy confiscated for a day. This worked really well and stopped me shouting/ranting/smacking.
• telling dd1 to use her words rather than hitting and reminding her constantly to tell me why she's so cross, even if it's shouting "nooooooo! mummy she's touching my toy" it's better than hitting.

Hope some of that is useful. Good luck!

I had a very similar situation for about a year - what really changed it was lots and lots of positive praise (you're sitting still really nicely, and absolutely anything else), and picking up dd2 and literally turning my back on dd1 when she hurt dd2. She really didn't like the lack of attention. DD2 is 18 months now, and it is much better (and has been since about august) partly due to this, but also partly because DD2 could just join in better - they could both push dolls prams round, so I got them one each so they could do the same thing at the same time.

My girls really love each other now, and I love them, but I honestly stopped loving dd1 for a while when she was at her absolute worst.

Petisa has also said some good stuff

Choceyes, that's EXACTLY how I feel with my eldest. I love her very much but I am despairing over her nastiness, nobody treated her like this when she was a baby!! I did the Sally Ann Test on her yesterday, it's called Theory of Mind, to see if she can empathise with someone else's feelings and it took 3 tries and 1 hands on role play to get her to understand. So she's not totally culpable and though very advanced in speech and dexterity her mind is still essentially not ready to compute all that I tell her.

Sometimes it's such hard going I am close to shutting my eldest in her room but I know her anger and jealousy will just get worse.

I have brought out old books of new babies and siblings and saying things like: You used to be so loving and sweet with DD2, kissing her hands and feet when you played with her, saying I love how kind and sweet she is with her younger sisters. I hope to brainwash her into kindness.

Petisa: I haven't actually done any of what you suggest. I have tried it yesterday evening: Are you angry at DD2 for taking your toys? And she said Yes. I am trying to explain that DD2 is still a baby and vulnerable.

I cannot seem to be able to explain why DD2 needs to be handled gently.

I will speak about emotions to DD1, very good suggestions, thank you!

2ddornt2dd: I have the sneaking suspicion that part of my DD1's antics is attention seeking. Thank you for your advice!! I will focus my attention on 'hutrt' DD2 instead of wasting it on scolding DD1 for a while whilst DD2 is crying.

I have felt myself growing colder towards DD1 to the point that I'm contemplating putting her up at my parents. My mum and Dad adore her and she is the golden girl whereas I am going mad when she is at her worst, hitting me, biting DD2 and smacking our housekeeper, ripping books apart, etc.

Most of all, thank you for your encouragement and kind words. Sometimes it just feels as if I'm alone with it all. My husband travels a lot so in a way I am alone and my nerves are truly tested.

FrauHolle, I think that the problem is, reading your last post, that DD1 picks up your feelings. DCs are very adept at reading what you don't say from body language and it doesn't matter what you say, it is what you do that counts.

I would say that DD1 is crying out for your attention and if she can't get it for positive behaviour she will get it for negative. I know one DC who even explained that to her mother, she said that she wanted the attention-good or bad, the one thing she couldn't stand was being ignored.

Petisa has good ideas and 2ddornot2dd. I wouldn't send her to your parents-being 'golden girl' there and coming back to not being 'golden girl' will probably make it worse.

This has really been taking off with my DD1 (3) who, in the transition between aged two and three and since the arrival of her little sister (Now 14 months), seems to have developed a horrible cruel streak. Yesterday, she got DD2's bottle out of the baby bag and chucked it into the toilet. She keeps hiding DD2's things and lying to my face when I ask if she has taken them. There is hitting, biting, the throwing of things at DD2. Her and DS are twins and DD1 has always been the more assertive, go getter twin. She and DS get along fine, probably because he is shy and doesn't get in her space. DD2 is only just getting more physically adept and she is into everything. I have actually scolded DD2 for "bothering" DD1 and felt absolute shit because she wasn't bothering! She was just trying to play! I just wanted to pre-empt the shitstorm that would ensue if DD2 gets too close. DD1 also keeps trying to wear DD2's clothes/trying to take DD2's bottle/other things and insists that they're "MINE!" even though we keep repeating that she's too old for these things now, they're for babies and she has nice big girl things, like her special drinks cup and her nice big girl clothes. I am at the end of my tether and I feel like I must have caused this by not paying enough attention to DD1 when DD2 came along. What's worse is DS has been increasingly shunted to the side as all my efforts are being put towards keeping DD1 from murdering DD2. He just tends to withdraw to a corner by himself when DD1 starts screaming and hitting.

I went to bed last night and it suddenly occured to me that you are absolutely knackered. You have been in an incredibly stressful situation for over a year, and now you are dealing with sleep deprivation as well. If your DH is going to be around over christmas would it be worth having a proper word with him now about what you can do with that time. Even DD1 is very young to have any real expectations of that time, so can you use it to shake things up a bit.

I am taking my two to a theme park on the Friday, in a 'christmas starts here, lets all be really kind and have a lovely time' way. Could you possibly cuddle up in DD1s bed one night, and say something along the lines of 'all this is making me really sad. Tomorrow when we get up lets all be kind to each other. I'm going to try really hard not shout and scold you, and I would like it if you could be kind to DD2 and DD3.

Then follow it through! Have a really special time as a family, and forget about fancy meals - just get a ready made joint from Marks, and the trimmings all done to go with it.

If you have already made plans with other people, ring them up and explain that you are finding it much harder with the three of them than you were expecting, and you'll make it up in the new year.

This might be impossible, impracticle advice if people have booked flights, but you could try doing it with DHs annual leave at another time.

And please don't sent DD1 to her Grandma's she feels as if you have pushed her away now, and that would actually be pushing her away. If your parents want to help, ask them to take her to take her out for the afternoon so you can enjoy your other children, or even better take them out so you can enjoy DD1.

I used to take DD1 swimming, which was only 2 hours including getting changed and travelling, so we could do it between DD2s feeds, and she was on her own with me throughout. When we got home we then had a nice snack (cake) all together to show that we could have treats as a family as well.

I know that spending time on your own with her might sound impossible, but I put DD2 to bed, and then get into bed with DD1 and cuddle her for 10-15mins, and it makes all the difference in terms of making her feel valued. That's the time of day when she actually chats to me.

We're not perfect now, but I mopped the floor today while they played together in a different room, and I would never have believed that possible six months ago. Sorry this is a bit long, but I really want you to know that things will get better, because you are determined to make them better.

I can relate to a lot of this, although not as extreme. I have 25 months between DD1 and DD2, and have been feeling more resentful towards DD1 over the summer due to constant squables, and her attention seeking behaviour.

Anyway, a couple of weeks ago I had a read of a book (think its called little angels, off some UK TV series). And I have done nothing but praise good stuff and ignore bad stuff. I have done really exagerated praising non stop for the most silly little things, and got a star chart on the go. And I can honestly say things have improved hugely. And in the last 2 weeks the girls have really started playing better.

good luck.

exoticfruits, hi, I have re-read my post and you are right. It must be attention, too.

We have just come back from a 3 year spell abroad, the container just arrived and the house looks like a bomb. My eldest DD has done very well to adjust, she has travelled loads with us and is very advanced, so much so that I sometimes forget she is only 3 and still a small girl. I must try harder to listen to her and show her I care.

TinyArmy: I am where you are. I feel my DD2 has to suffer because my eldest is so nasty to her and my youngest gets shunted aside because DD1 domineers our family life. I had a horrible day today and yday and exploded at her when she scratched and bit me. I am not having her treat me like this! Then I felt horrible for shouting at her and locking her in her room.

I just don't know how to do it all. My nerves are frayed, my husband is no use whatsoever, he just SCREAMS at her, I mean ROARS and uses all sorts of expletives, I am shaking when he does this, I really hate it.

I feel like I'm not doing a good job being a mum to my eldest because she challenges me and I fall for it. She hurts me and is cruel to her middle sister to the point I cannot bear it any longer. She will howl and scratch and kick to get what she wants. Yet she is the most adorable, sweet-natured and funny little girl when I read to her and we draw or glue or play together.

It's just that I can't leave my younger children to themselves all the while, just so I can be with my eldest. That's not fair.

Thanks 2ddornot2dd, yes I actually just had an operation on my breast for an encapsulated mastitis and a biopsy on the other for a lump which turned out to be benign. I am knackered. I can't sleep for worries as my DH has taken redundancy from his previous job but is doing consulting work with long lead times so I worry about money, I lie there in the dark for hours, then the baby cries, then i try and sleep and - bang - it's 7am and i have to rise and shine again. Every day. If I wouldn't have my mum and our housekeeper `i would implode.

What you suggest sounds really sweet, I will tell her tomorrow night and carve out time just for her. I won't send her to my parents, she will feel relegated to the sidelines and as exoticfruits said perhaps it will make things worse if she's the golden girl there and here she's one of 3 it will be so much harder for her.

Swimming sounds lovely, we are in southern Germany and have lots of hot springs/thermal baths. She loves swimming, I will try that with her for an hours or two.

Christmas will be just us and very quiet. We are in a small village with just my parents coming over and all of us going to church. We don't have lots of family and our friends are in the MIddle East, Asia and UK with their own families. It is our first Xmas in Germany. I think you are right, we must focus on the girls as a family and huddle together more.

Goosey123, I have also started praising and told everyone to fall into line (my Parents, housekeeper, DH). We will work on this. Sometimes my temper gets the better of me. But honestly what am I supposed to do when she scratches me and bites? I was so surprised I yelped. I have scratches and bruises on my hand and arm. I will look up that book though. Thank you!

You really have your hands full! Don't be too hard on yourself. I would try and ignore the bad and concentrate on the good-but it is hard. I found that if you got onto negatives it went from bad to worse and I used to go to another room, count to ten and come back and look for a positive-it always improved things. Anyone would find your situation difficult-even Mary Poppins!!

I really feel for you. Two years ago I was in almost exactly your position. My DDs are exactly 2 yrs apart (birthdays a few days apart) and then I have 25 months between DD2 and DS. DD1's behaviour to DD2 was appalling from day 1, bite, kick, squash, take toys, push her over once she took her first wobbly steps etc etc. I was going mad and beginning to think that there was something seriously wrong with DD1, not to mention actively starting to dislike her. After DS was born it was even worse. She was lovely to him but terrible to DD2 and in general her behaviour deteriorated with tantrums and anger - she was so hard to manage. Yet nursery reported her as a sunny, compliant, well behaved articulate girl with loads of friends.

DH and I were at our wits end and in retrospect I think I was suffering from PND too after DS's birth, not to mention being exhausted the whole time. In the end we gritted our teeth and decided something had to change. We looked at our own behaviour and realised we were telling DD1 off for the slightest thing - it was like our anger levels were already at boiling point with her so the slightest naughtiness made us come down like a ton of bricks. That had to stop - we tried to stop telling her off at all and removed her from conflict situations from her sister without the usual anger shouting and lecture. In addition I made a conscious effort to try and show her more that I loved her - hard, as at the time I wasn't feeling that much love. Constant little cuddles or squeeze of her hand, force a little smile every time I looked at her, it soon became second nature (fake it till you make it as they say). Most of all, as choceyes suggested try to find a little time with just her. I tried to make a point of picking DD1 up at least once every two weeks from school on my own (my Mum, DH, neighbour or my cleaner would watch the others) and take her out for half an hour for tea, or to the park. Also at bed time I would try and find 10 mins to lie on the bed just with her to talk about the day.

All these things really helped - firstly our relationship improved dramatically, as I worked at our relationship I found that it blossomed. Her endless tantrums, beligerent and difficult behaviour also lessened bit by bit (it took time though - I'm talking over a period of weeks / months). Her almost pathalogical tormenting of her sister also lessened dramatically.

Anyway, now the children are 6, 4 and 2. DDs are still jealous of each other and still fight - but like any sisters not in a crazy way. They are also very loving and happy playing together at other times. DD2 started reception this term - DD1 protects her at school, looks out for her and one time there was a whole assembly kicked off with a discussion about family loving each other and being kind after DD1 had been spotted running over to welcome DD2 into the assembly hall and give her a kiss!

So please try and hang in there. Don't give up on your DD1, try and make extra time for her and show her over and over again that you love her whatever she does and you will start to see the benefits.

exoticfruits, thank you for your suggestion: I find it really helpful to leave the room and count to ten or splash my face and come back into the room after that.

I have now made contact with a child psychologist, not only because of my eldest but also for myself as her mummy. I was always hit badly when `i misbehaved as a child, with slippers and what not. I need to re-learn how to cope and diffuse the rivalry situations. I actually need to check why there is such nasty rivalry in the first place.

Nelly!! It is exactly the same as in my home! Your first paragraph could feature my firstborn! I liked what you said about 'fake it till you make it'. I have taken choceyes advice and started to cuddle DD1 more, read her her bedtime story, tell her that I love her and caress her hair/cheeks, kiss her and smile at her spontaneously. We had a lovely evening today and she did say she loved DD2 when they were both in their beds shouting excitedly at each other and creating as much noise as possible.

I am glad you told me your story, I hope I can emulate what you did and find a better way to coax my DD1 into being kind and loving with DD2.

I will keep you all posted what the psychologist says.

Hello. We are having similar problems here with my 2 ds. There are 29 months between them and DS1 has just turned 3, DS2 is 8 months. DS1 has started to snatch toys, throw things at DS2 and experiment with pinches and kicks etc. Things are getting worse now my youngest is crawling and grabbing his toys. However something that I think really helps is playing fun games with the two of them together. Everyday DH or I try and play some silly 'rough and tumbling type' games, tickling or tag. (The current favourite is 'baby aeroplane' where we pick up the baby and chase our toddler round the house with him making mad aeroplane noises). Both children love these moments and I think it teaches my eldest , not only how to interact with the baby, but also that the youngest can be fun to play with too. They share some fun moments together. So not a perfect situation here and bound to get worse as DS2 becomes more active but this is definitely something that is working for us at the moment. At the very least it seems to dissolve the tension for a few hours.