Help with our 3 year old! absolutely at end of tether re. bedtime!

[MumblingAndBloodyRagDoll]

DD2 is bossy assertive and spoilt demanding and we have gotten into a terrible thing where she repeatedly wakes up from going to bed at 7.30 until around midnight when she finally comes into our bed.

DH began sitting with her during these early evening wakings and that has now created a horrible thing where she screams and screams until I sit with her until she falls asleep again. I took over from DHs sitting routine when he worked away when she was 2....I have not been able to break it and she's 3 and a half now!

If she spots me sneaking out she lifts the roof with her screaming. I cant bear it. TOTALLY done with it. Last night and tonight I told DH he had to sort it out as it was HIM who started it all....he can't cope either as hes tired from work (so am I!)

But I am not doing this anymore. I have tried to work ou why she wakes all the time and can't...the room is quet, she has blckout blinds...she's not hot, wet or cold....but still she wakes up every hour or two.

HELP ME!

Bump. She's screeching the house down.

What's your bedtime routine like otherwise, fairly consistent?

Is she otherwise healthy ? And assume given how long it's gone on its not due to change in routine (although dh going to work away may have compounded it).

If its a bad habit (and sounds like it), I would go the route of star chart/ reward for not dojng it. Give her something to distract her - noisy book/ picture book to look at with a night light or torch (you can get some disney ones that are both on amazon). That might help with the dark/ I can't sleep issue.

Then it's large bottle for you and doing the controlled screaming route of going in to check she is on every so often and leaving it longer all time.

Dd not dissimilar age and goes through phases of crying etc for me to sit with her and I know others have had issues so I do think it is partly an age thing where they assert themselves. But again am assuming no big changes Health issues etc

Sounds like gradual withdrawal might be something that would work to start with - if she goes to sleep calmly then perhaps it will help with the night waking - maybe she's scared of something, terrified that she'll wake up and you won't be there? (which I suppose you wouldn't be when she does wake?)

She says she's scared....tried nightlights but she still wakes up....now stupid t his emper and I am really pissed off. If I try to rely on him for help he loses it and it's all donw to me again.

Her bedtime routine is good always the same, bath and story, etc.

theres no way of doing gradual withdrawl as it's repeated ALL night long. What do I do? Sit there for 5 minutes and then go? Thats what I tried tonight and now we have had over an hour of scraming and she's woken DD1 up.

Is the scared thing what has always woken her up or is it new? Does she share with dd1 ?

www.mumsnet.com/toddlers/sleep-problems

"Gradual withdrawal' or 'gradual retreat' does what it says on the tin, and involves you moving further and further away from your toddler each night (without causing them distress) until you're eventually so far away you're skipping downstairs where your glass of Rioja and the telly awaits. Gradual withdrawal is a good technique for more anxious and tearful children, who are bleating "Don't leave me, Mummy".
If you're already cuddling your child to sleep, then try one night just holding his hand, perhaps the next night sitting on his bed, and so on. The idea is your child is still comforted but you move further away each night.

I meant just to use it initially when she's settling (because you said you sit with her until she falls asleep). Hopefully this will help calm her a bit and get her less used to you being in the room when she is asleep. She stirs in the night, sees that you have gone, and starts screaming. I just thought it would be a good starting point, and then once you've done that then maybe you'll have to go down the controlled crying/star charts etc route for the subsequent night wakings.

DD2 did this. always tricky to get to sleep, started sitting on the sofa in her room and she'd fall asleep in 5 minutes. Then it turned into hours. Tried gradual withdrawal, reward charts, praise, story CDs, sister in her bed - everything!

About a year ago I was heavily pregnant, DH was working away, only home for 40 hours and one bedtime a week, DD2 (2.5) was a demanding nightmare and then DD1 (3.9) cottoned on to the fact that if she played up she might get attention too. My mum took pity on me and stayed for a night while I played hardball. I carried her backupstairs 20 times, then waited outside her room and carried her back another 20. Then decided I could be there all night and held the door shut. It's generally not my style of parenting at all but we were in extreme circumstances and DD2 is nothing if not stubborn. I was there for 90 minutes; it was horrid. The next night she went to bed like a dream. This worked for about 8 months, even through the arrival of DD3.

since then she has tried persistently to get me to stay on the sofa, I have always said no because she's such a stubborn minx and still, about a month ago, she turned into a screaming banshee about it. This time we have gone with a reward chart and it has worked.

I'm not entirely sure what my advice is! However, I do know what it feels like to be at breaking point about bedtime. Good luck.

We went thru this after dh started holding ds1 hand to go to sleep. Then cried every time we tried to go. And once the cot bed side was off he would come running out of his room crying and risk waking ds2.

In the end we played hardball, but not as tough as I know some people are.

We put a stair gate on his door which meant that he could have the door left open a bit and a bit of light come in from the hall. Most importantly we knew he couldn't run out and fall down the stairs or run into ds2 room and wake him. Then we told him we would be back in 5 mins to check on him and we just kept on doing that. No hanging around just good night and a cuddle and kiss then left to screams and cries and listened to it downstairs. Then back up....
First night it was an hour. 2nd night 15 mins. 3rd night straight to sleep. SMS funnily enough it never woke his brother who slept straight thru it all. They now share a room and both settle brilliantly.
I so hate controlled crying but really felt that at 2 1/2 we had to break the cycle.

Hope you get some rest

My DD was exactly the same at this age, i'm almost finding it hard to remember because now at 4y she goe's up every night at 7, story, lights out.

I'm ashamed to say mumble that i wimped took the path of least resistance, and let her fall asleep on the sofa, and then carried her up.

I just ended up crying as well, the other way, it was awful, you have my full sympathy and i hope this passes quickly.

Just think mumble we'll be posting in teenagers in a few years about how we can't get them out of bed.

DS2 tries this at nearly 2. Leave her, let her scream for about 10 mins, go back for a cuddle, repeat a couple of times, then give her more milk/ a drink and leave again. They are buggers at this age. We have never had to do it for more than 10 mins TBH. You do go thought the worst at about 7.30ish, but by 8.30 it should be all over and she should sleep for most of the night. She is trying it on, and it will only get worse if you don't deal with it sooner rather than later

Poor you and your DH. Tbh, I would just shut the door. Leave her a little night light. After few days she'll sleep through. It isn't cruel: at 3yo she is perfectly capable of understanding that night is for sleeping. Especially that you've said that it's been going on for ages: if it was a new thing, perhaps it could be nightmares/terrors, but here it seems to me she just got used to having a parent near by.

Thanks everyone....she's asleep now so feel more sane. Was v upset with it all...no tme to chill ever. Thanks again.

I'm sorry to say my dd only started behaving like this at about 3. By 4 we had enough of bedtime battles which seemed neverending so our answer was to for me to cuddle her to sleep, and we have been doing that ever since. She is now 9. It only takes a short time (15 mins) bedtimes are stressfree, she has always slept through till 8am from 8pm or perhaps 8.45 nowadays. Quite often she goes to sleep without needing a cuddle, numerous sleepover residential trips where cuddle not available! I think it made her very secure, and that was all she needed. Story, chat, cuddle sleep. She is an excellent sleeper, and never been known to wake in the night.

I can remember having terrible nightmares in my childhood, and just longing for someone to sit by my bedside before I went to sleep, I suspect that has coloured my change of heart. Before that we were very much of the "Children go to bed Spit Spot Mary Poppins variety" bath story firm tuck in. I've changed a lot, I think children love to be chatted to before they drop off. It doesn't have to be long drawn out battle of wills, just a sense that you are at hand.

My sister swears by pottering around on the landing for about 20 mins, just to reassure, rather than actually staying in bedroom, I think that is another solution. Also two children in one room is very reassuring too.

I tried that swan I dont mind cuddling her to sleep ONCE...but as I said, she wakes up then hourly and sceams for me to repeat it.

Mumbling*, leave her for a bit i.e. 10 or 20 mins. She will be fine

Tell her in advance that all the night time nonsense has to stop. Then keep taking her back to bed, with no talking or eye contact. Repeat until she gets the message. Just think how much more energy you will have once you can stop worrying about how much sleep everyone is getting. Ensuring that the dcs can settle themselves and stay in their beds was a massive priority in our house. During the day I give everything, but at night (unless ill or the occasional nightmare of course) they have their beds and they can jolly well go to them.

I sypathise and agree with most of the above - have you tried a later bedtime. My ds has always gone down about 9 and not had many issues - I may have been lucky though, I don't claim any special skills.

I think if a bedtime routine is working then it is a precious thing and not to be toyed with lightly.

But if you have a routine that isn't working, then you have nothing to lose by shaking things up a bit. There are various tricks you could try around 'special magical nightlights', letting your DD choose a new duvet cover or snuggly blanket, using story CDs or using rapid return techniques etc.
DD had a 'sleepy treat fairy' who would (occassionally) reward DD for staying in her own bed all night with a little gift in the morning (often enough to give DD an incentive but not so often to become expected or broke the bank). This worked better than star charts for us - but you could try a star chart instead if you prefer.
Leaving the room while your DD is awake sounds like a real trial at the moment. Could you sit with her til she is very nearly asleep, then make an excuse to leave 'I'm just going to the loo, I'll be back in a moment' - come back quickly the first few nights, but gradually comeback more slowly and hopefully she will almost accidentally fall asleep while you are out of the room. This works with my DS sometimes.

The main thing is to implement any changes confidently, and stick (very calmly) to your guns. Don't let yourself be distracted or tempted to lapse into old habits.

Good luck - it will come good in the end.

I agree with turtleshark

I too don't really tolerate bedtime nonsense unless for a genuine reason. I think you need to just be firm with her and a bit harder. While she thinks you'll go running every time she requests, she'll continue. If she knows you aren't going to run every single time, then she'll eventually realise it's not worth the effort and much easier to just sleep.

If it were a younger baby, I'd question a harder approach it a bit more, but at 3 she's more than capable of understanding what she's doing. Mine has just turned 2 and very occasionally has tried it on at bedtimes. I leave him to it because I know the moment I start going in and out, he'll do it all the more - and he gets the message quite clearly. Obviously if it's a poorly or distressed (nightmare) cry, that's very different.

Oh - and if you try a new idea and have given it 100% effort for a couple of weeks or more and it's not helping, then ditch it and try something new.

Ds has been doing this recently. Kept wanting more and more food in the night and not eating in the day and wanting stories and getting up to play on the landing...
A globe nightlight worked for a while but then he decided that was 'too dark' and wanted the big light on. So he has the overhead light on unless he plays silly buggers. Worth a try?
After a couple weeks of repeating 'POTTY or BED' and one heck of a lot of dumping him back in bed and then having to shut the bedroom door before he gets there - he can't open it himself yet. Then there's usually some screaming which eventually will lead to him admitting he really does need the potty, or wants the big light on, and then will get into bed happily (when we leave the door ajar). The sticking point seems to be waking up realising something is wrong but not that he needs to use the potty, though half the time he manages just fine. Also some nights he's settled as soon as he realises that Daddy is saying exactly the same as Mummy!

He hasn't demanded food in the night for a fortnight and went to sleep beautifully last night - I think not trying to get him to bed until he was tired enough was a key part, and then lying down while I read a story means he's 99% asleep by the end. Maybe more exercise in the day?

I'm not risking the dummy fairy visiting until after Christmas, though!

I think I will have a chat to her about it today...the trouble with her is that she's very argumentative...if ou offer her a star shes likely t claim she doesn't want it as much as she wants Mummy by the bed at night.

I will look for a good night light...I think she might like one of those baby ones which move and send patterns around. She claimed last night that he mind keeps "flitting from one thing to another" which sounds like something someone at nursery has said to her and she's repeating!

I will move her bedroom about and put her down a bit later...I also think I need to re-do her room....it still looks like a babies nursery and she'd rather somethin a bit more grown up....might change her mode of thinking!

Argumentative rings a bell! We learnt that one of dd's many delaying tactics or windups was to engage in arguments ,protracted whingy negotiations...so I'm afraid to say we learnt the hard way NEVER NEVER NEGOTIATE OR DISCUSS THE REASONS FOR THINGS, or TRY AND WIN THEM OVER WITH THREATS AND BRIBES.

So the worst thing you can do is set a high standard of strictness and then relent. You are teaching child the art of windup, resistance. If you involve the child in bedtime, make each step something they feel safe and secure with, rather than something you impose upon them, you are much more likely to get what you ultimately want, a child that goes to sleep and stays asleep. It is not about the principle of the thing (something parents get bogged down on, don't they) it is about making a WORKABLE ARRANGEMENT. For some parents that might be accepting that their child needs to be firmly put back to bed 10 times before they settle, for another that might mean telling a long involved story about a guardian angel, for another it might mean some transition object that protects the child when you are not there, for another it might be a story tape, for another it might mean co-sleeping. I think Gina Ford has a story in one of her books about a little girl who is terrified of a monster(lion?) outside the window, won't go to sleep, etc etc and how it takes a while to reassure her, and the way she does that is by "involvement", telling stories about making friends with the lion...anyway I think that was it...problem solved and NOT by being strict and saying There's No Such Thing as Monsters...

I think early bedtimes are much much better. The later the more woundup the child is likely to be.