At our wits' end with DD1 (2.8) (sorry, long!)

[minicorrect]

I feel terrible writing this, but for the second time today, I've been close to tears over DD's behaviour (and I don't cry easily at all). I just need some advice on where we might be going wrong or how we can manage things better.

I'm not sure where to start, but probably, the background: DD1 co-slept with us until I went back to work when she was 9 months. However, the constant getting up in the night to settle her (and over an hour settling her to sleep at bedtime) took it's toll and I moved into the spare room so DP could co-sleep with her on worknights. We tried putting her bed in our room but that made no difference, we bought her a Peppa ready bed to sleep on the floor next to us, but again no better, we tried different bedtimes and routines and still nothing. Then DD2 arrived in August and it became impossible to have both of them in bed with us, especially as they kept disturbing each other. So now, DP goes into DD1 when she wakes up and sleeps in her bed with her (can be anything from midnight to 5am when this happens). We really didn't want her to feel pushed out by the new baby but this was unavoidable.

She also nappy trained over the summer and was doing really well, but recently, she has regressed occasionally - she'll have lots of dry days and then days where she just wets herself and doesn't even say anything until she asks to take her trousers off and we discover they're wet or a puddle somewhere. I don't chastise her for wetting herself as I want her to understand that accidents happen and that it's not wrong. She used to get really upset if she had one, but now it seems she does it to annoy us when she doesn't get her own way. Today she's been through 3 pairs of trousers for example. We do not want to go back to nappies as I threatened that at the start of this behaviour and she said she'd like that. A lot of her behaviour is almost trying to be a baby again (I assume in response to new baby) - e.g. feed me like a baby at every meal, baby talk, asking to wear nappies, and go in pushchair, etc.

She throws tantrums over everything - we'll tell her she can watch one more episode of Peppa Pig and then turn it off, but then she has a meltdown when we do this, if we offer her a banana instead of crisps/chocolate/cake she has a meltdown, ask her not to jump on us/DD2/sofa/bed, she has a meltdown, ad infinitum. I've been trying to manage these as distress tantrums rather than Little Neros but now I think I've been too soft. Giving her time out just escalates the tantrum so doesn't work either.

Despite the lack of sleep, I take her to a baby/toddler group or softplay every day to give her some time to let off steam (and us some time off from the constant whinging and needing us to play with her/read to her, etc). But DP thinks we're spoiling her by going out of our way to ensure she gets out every day to something for her. But at weekends, if we don't go out, we just seem to spend all day, every day screaming at each other. Just now I saw her pick something off the floor and put it in her mouth so asked her what it was, she ignored me and ignored me - even when I got to the point of shouting the question right into her ear. It's just a constant battle of wills and I can't take much more of the shouting, crying, screaming and no no no's.

What can we do? I love her so much and when she's great she's incredible but I feel like I'm failing her terribly at the moment.

Wow - you sound like you're really struggling at the moment and have been for a while. First of all I would say don't be so hard on yourself, you don't sound like you're failing her - just having a hard time.

I co-slept with my daughter until it became disruptive for everyone. It took a while to break the cycle but we finally managed to get her to sleep in her own bedroom and her own bed - she's nearly two now (and very wilful!!) and sleeps through the night without a peep. One piece of advice that I heard that was helpful was 'you have to be as consistent with the new way as you were with the old'. Change takes time to get used to and there will be some resistance - and I imagine that this is what the regression/shouting etc is about.

I think it's great that you're trying to do something for her every day, but I would be wary of always doing softplay etc - I think what she'd really like is one on one time with you even just for a few minutes. When my DD was born I was told that I didn't always have to respond immediately to her crying when I was doing something with my DS. This gave him the message that she was not the centre of the universe and he was important too. That being said I did explain when I had to leave to look after her and tried to get him involved in some way.

I don't know if that helps at all - but be gentle with yourself and with her. You'll get there eventually even if it doesn't feel like it at the moment.

Poor you this sounds tough. I am afraid it is all normal though - my two have almost the same age difference and DD (then 2.2) had a massive potty and sleep regression when DS arrived. We gritted our teeth, lived through the accidents, left her to cry in her bed, which was horrible but necessary, and have now emerged on the other side (DS is six months, DD is 2.8). DD sleeps through again and is mostly accident-free. She loves her baby brother.

I think they act up because they want attention and don't know how to express it. Give her time and things will get back to normal. I would consider some sleep training though, for her sake and yours, but I am aware not everyone agrees.

Also I would suggest to try not to scream, as it makes you feel bad and doesn't work anyway. Instead, try lowering your tone almost to a (very firm) whisper so she needs to pay attention in order to hear you.

You are doing the right thing not putting her back in nappies. I know it is hard, hopefully things will start to brighten up soon.

Oh dear, you are all having a tough time!

Nappies: I agree that she shouldn't go back in nappies - I think you've taken exactly the right tack with ignoring 'accidents' even if they're on purpose. When she discovers they get her no extra attention she'll probably go back to being clever about it. It's a bit of a regression that's understandable.

Activities: I also agree that she doesn't need to go out to a 'thing' for her every day - in fact it's possibly a bit too much for her to deal with. With the new baby as well there's a lot going on and she may actually feel that she's being shoved out of the house. It's her territory, after all.

Discipline: I would really limit the use of timeouts - they're horrible for a toddler and you might want to save them for serious violence against the baby. Everywhere else, pick your battles. If you think she's got something in her mouth, ignore it. She might carry it around in her mouth for a while but she's unlikely to choke. Don't shout, it ups the ante. You might be right about the Little Neros, but if things can be dialled down a bit in general then they might diminish.

Sleep: I think it sounds like you're doing ok, actually. She doesn't have to go through something like sleep training, necessarily. If your DP can cope with co-sleeping with her while you co-sleep with the baby, then it sounds like a good system. Maybe not wait till she wakes in the night, either - just decide that you're going to split the co-sleeping and arrange it to suit yourselves as much as possible. If everyone knows the way things are going to be overnight it's a lot less stressful.

Some alone-time with you every day might be good for her. And making things more of a game - while a hard habit to get into - does get far better behaviour from toddlers than orders/shouting. The Playful Parenting principles are good ones.

Good luck.

Sounds very tough. I had a terrible time with my DS1 when DD was born and know how you feel. Some ideas: try and spend a little time with her every day where it's her time and she chooses what you do and she's knows it's her time where she doesn't have to share you with the baby. Try and talk to her about the emotions she's feeling - it's perfectly reasonable emotional response given her new sibling and her age and she needs to know what it is 'cross' or 'sad etc. Help her to find more appropriate behaviours that will help her when she's feeling those things - e.g. pretend to blow bubbles or blow out candles on a cake to get her to breathe deeply and calm down.

Notice/comment on all the good things she's doing, especially in areas where she's not consistently behaving as you want. Try and ignore the tantrums, except when it's aggressive behaviour?

Maybe to add to her security have quite a set routine for a while?

With DS, he was potty training during this time and I got very upset and overly wound up by his accidents which now I can see didn't help. So instead ignore the accidents, no reaction, just change her and praise when she's dry? It's easier said that done I know....

Sleep - dunno - I now have DS2 who is 2.3 and still arriving in our bed part way through the night to bf so I can't comment :)

I have a 2.3year gap between my kids, and it was the arrival of DD2 that caused the problems. I think the easiest way for you to deal with this is going to be to break it down into its seperate parts. (sleep, potty, tantrums, eating etc) and then decide what's really important to you and deal with them one at once.

If your baby still isn't sleeping I might be tempted to leave that for a bit (as you aren't getting any sleep anyway, so it won't make any difference).

For the general behaviour/tantrums I think you need to ignore the bad, and praise the good. It was slightly different for me because DD1 used to hit DD2 all the time, from birth. I spent months trying to discipline her before I got really good advice. That advice was basically to give 8 positive points for every one negative point. For me that was literally, oh DD1, you're sitting very nicely, you've put your shoes on very well, thank you for passing me xyz, and so on. I think what I'm trying to say is that she doesn't need to be great to get a compliment, just satisfactory.

Try and give her a few minutes on her own each day when baby is asleep, and use it to do something, baking, colouring reading a story whatever works for her.

I only used the TV for breastfeeding, so it was a treat for her when it was on, and she didn't mind DD2 getting attention.

Just ignore the tantrums, if she's clinging to your legs just walk away, or turn your back on her.

This did really work for me - I wasted a year on time outs, and this sorted her in about 3 months - she's like a different child now.

For sleep issues I'm a fan of the baby whisperer stuff - try The Baby Whisperer solves all your problems from your local library.

All the other advice you have had is also very sound.

Thanks for all the comments and advice. Ironically she was perfect child on Wednesday and I then felt terrible for even thinking these things. However, yesterday, she returned to form.
Took her to toddler group by herself, leaving baby with DP and she was fine there. But took ages eating lunch, kept squealing when we asked her to BF quiet so DD2 could sleep and was then a complete horror at the shops. Then kept being naughty when she was waiting to start helping me make a cake later. Final straw came at bathtime when she announced to DP that she'd wee'd in her knickers as they went into the bathroom. Deep breath!
I have also spoken to some other mums with new babies and am reassured to hear of similar behaviour from their pre-schoolers. I guess in the famous mumsnet words, this too shall pass!

Be not BF

The problem is that she isn't yet 3yrs so she is really very much a baby still and she is doing what 2 yr olds do-they are not called 'the terrible twos' for nothing. Her nose is put out of joint with a new baby.
I would stop giving her attention for bad behaviour and catch her being good and give it then, it is all too tempting to leave when behaving well.
There is nothing to do with tantrums except ignore completely and then talk to her when she comes out of them. Keep calm and say things like 'I can't understand if you scream and shout'.
Give her lots of attention as 'the big girl' so that she sees some advantage in not being the baby and then, hopefully, the toilet problem will sort out.
Benign neglect is good, she doesn't need to be taken out all the time.

Agree with most advice given here but have one thing to add. Is it possible DD is tired?

I completely appreciate that all children are different but there is no way my DD1 could have coped with a full on activity like toddlers or soft play every day plus shops plus cake baking (DD2 could have coped with a bit more and I suspect that DD3 will cope with it all and more!). DD1 needed a LOT of down time - she napped til well over 3 and needed more quiet time later in the afternoon. I tried to read with her or just sit and cuddle but with having a 17 month gap between DD's 1 and 2 and DD3 arriving just after DD1 turned 4 meant that I relied on cbeebies a lot for her quiet time; it really made a difference to her behaviour.

Lack of sleep is a good point-and not only is your DD not getting enough, but neither are you which makes it all a vicious circle. Since it problem with no quick fix, spending time doing nothing at home would be more restful.

Ah that's interesting about the tiredness as she's recently dropped her nap but will often fall asleep in the car if we go somewhere in the afternoon and enjoys zombie time in front of the TV while I make dinner but this is something we've stopped for bad behaviour.

I think the idea behind all the activity is to try and tire her out physically and mentally to help her sleep (which obviously hasn't worked!) and we are sometimes surprised by how well she sleeps the nights when we've done very little during the day but maybe we should look at this more. So, not taking her out every day and doing something outside/away from home is ok? I always feel like a terrible parent if I want to stay home and have put a week planner together to ensure there's some kind of external activity every day (baby/toddler groups/softplay/cinema/park/walks) - is this too much then? I try to do things alone with her while DD2 sleeps too - so baking/gardening/play - could we be over-stimulating her? Know about this for babies, but had never considered it for older children!

Feel like a lightbulb has just pinged in my head - some great advice here!!

In fact, having discussed this with DP perhaps I am doing too much and trying too hard. Our week goes like this:
Monday am: baby & toddler group
Monday pm: baking/cooking
Tuesday am: softplay
Tuesday pm: baby massage and BF group (with DD2 only)
Wednesday am: baby & toddler group, then baby sensory (with DD2 only)
Wednesday pm: baby & toddler group, then grocery shopping
Thursday am: baby & toddler group
Thursday pm: park/walk/other activity
Friday am: baby & toddler group (DP takes DD1 so I can have some time out)
Friday pm: baby & toddler group
Saturday: there's usually something happening locally to go to
Sunday am: kids club at cinema
Sunday pm: cooking

It does seem a lot and I sometimes crave a day when DD1 might get ill and we can all just snuggle on the sofa watching TV all day. But then feel guilty about it!

Today we're not going to toddler groups as DD1 wet herself last night but I stupidly mentioned the queen is visiting today and did she want to see her (as a joke - I hate the royal family) and now she keeps asking when we're going. And as I'm a life is about experiences, not things kind of thinker, I do feel I should take her so she can look back when she's older on it (will need a photo as she probably won't remember it anyway). I am trying too hard aren't I?!

That is an exhausting schedule. My 2 dss were 2 years apart. We went to toddler group once a week. Most of the time we just went to the park - baby in pram, ds1 pootling about collecting leaves/twigs etc.

There was no Cbeebies or anything back then, so Ds1 was allowed to watch a video (I know, I am ancient) while I fed ds2.

Ds1 and I did story or puzzle or playdough while ds2 napped.

I think the most important thing is quiet one to one time whenever possible.

Small children can find too much interaction with other toddlers together with the noise etc too stressful, and I think overstimulation is an issue.

I did a lot of going to tea with friends with children of the same age. Ds1 definitely enjoyed this much more than toddler group.

Overtiredness = poor sleep IME

Good God, I have a two year gap with mine and there is no way I'd have wanted to do all that! Yes, you are doing a bit too much. Drop some toddler groups and do some jigsaws or something.

Hi Minicorrect,
Things do sound hard for you at the moment, but don't ever think you are failing your child. Children often display behaviour that is challanging and can push us to our limits, it's all part of parenting.
Ive worked as a nanny for 14 years and have come across every problem in the book and some that aren't. Ive helped both the parent and the child through these challanges by giving them the knowledge and understanding to deal with them effectively.
I recently became and mum myself and wow how things are different when your on the other side. But, they are the same challanges that can be dealt with in the same way. Its hard but achievable.
Children are not pre-programmed with how to behave, we as adults and parents need to teach them appropriate behaviour. Taking a firm approach with your DD1 will show her that you are in control. This is important as it will give your child guidence allowing her to progressivly understand the rules of acceptable behaviour.
You seem to have a good approach when dealing with your DD1's behaviour, I think its literally a matter of persistance. keep it up, you'll get there.
I am happy to help and give more indepth advice if you would like me to.
xx

Wow! Way too much activity! I think she's exhausted and overstimulated. IMO one toddler-thing per week is enough - they find it incredibly draining and stressful and it often takes a day to recover from one! Agree with all those who've said concentrate on the good and praise her when she's behaving. You catch more flies with jam than vinegar!

I disagree with your DP, you are def not spoiling her by trying to do activities with her and I think most 2-year-olds need to get out of the house at some point during the day. But I do think you are a bit too busy, and that she might prefer fewer activities (esp baby & toddler groups which IME aren't the most relaxing places) and more 1 on 1 time with you. Agree with 3littlefrogs that an overtired child often sleeps less well.

Also - pick your battles. I find that when my children are acting up, I start overreacting to any little annoying thing they do. Remind yourself of the difference between normal toddler behaviour and unacceptable behaviour (eg hitting the baby). Some of her behaviour yesterday doesn't sound that bad to me! (eg taking ages to eat her lunch - maybe a bit attention seeking but hardly the end of the world - and it's hard for my v sensible 5 yo to remember to be quiet when his brother is asleep, let alone a 2 yo!)

Hang in there with the potty regression, it's so common and I think you are right to try and stay calm and not tell her off.

Blimey! DD1 would have collapsed after 3 days of that schedule!

I would always try and get out of the house but it wasn't to groups and activities all the time. One or two big groups, visit to a friend's, a trip to the shops and a trip to the park for example. If we'd done soft play in the morning she needed a big rest and then a gentle activity like sticking and colouring or baking.

Also agree that the amount of activity she did had absolutely no bearing whatsoever on her sleep.

Apart from anything else it must be costing you a fortune! We get out for some fresh air every day but very often it's just to Boots or something with the playground on the way home.

Blardy hell

She needs to be with you and involved with baby. Let her potter about, hand you wipes for baby, feel involved. Share some conspiratorial smiles and jokes when baby crying.

Ignore ' bad behaviour' don't turn her into the problem. She just needs lots of calm time with you scribbling, watching TV, pottering in park/ garden having a friend to play. She is still a baby and doesn't understand punishment and probably finds all that rather frustrating and confusing.

And you must be knackered too. Slow down.

And how do you tolerate two visits to toddler group in the same day????

We usually went to one toddler group, one swimming and one music/signing class a week with a day at home in between at that age. Weekends rarely have anything structured and we can spend an hour just wandering up the lane looking for conkers/blackberries or scootering up and down (my DD's are 4.11 and 3.3 now BTW).

At 2.8 mine loved dressing up, craft, jigsaws, being read to, playdough and spending hours playing in the bath. Also, as 3LittleFrogs says, having a friend over to play with/tea might be nice for her, and distract her from you and DD2.

We never did 'time out'. I would just ask them to go to their rooms if their behaviour was 'unasseptible' (in best Supernanny speak) and then i would either go to them and talk about why/what was wrong or they come back and apologise and we move on. Cuts out the need for shouting, although this does still happen

There is nothing to feel guilty about staying at home - honestly, give yourself a break and have a . I recall someone saying on here - you are a parent, not a children's entertainer!

Hope things look up soon for you all

"But DP thinks we're spoiling her by going out of our way to ensure she gets out every day to something for her. But at weekends, if we don't go out, we just seem to spend all day, every day screaming at each other."

This is where you are going (badly) wrong. Your DD sounds bored and frustrated. You need to spend several hours a day in the park with her.

I completely understand how you are feeling - I went through almost exactly the same with my DD1 and DD2 (who are exactly 2 years apart). Firstly - I agree with some of the others that you might want to tone down the activities as it all seems a bit too exhausting for DD1 (and for you). One activity a day max I'd say and don't feel guilty about days doing nothing (although I used to go a bit stir crazy on days when we did nothing - for my sanity not just DD1's I usually needed to do something). Secondly I might look at the sleep issue. It will need work and strong resolve from you and DH but you should be able to crack it within a couple of weeks by being consistent. Continually returning her to her own bed, maybe you or DH sitting with her to settle her, but not sleeping with her - you are likely to get less sleep in the first week / 10 days, so prepare for that and be strong.

In respect of the behaviour issues my first comment would be please try and remember how much of a baby she still is. I somehow didn't quite realise this at all with my DD1 - she was so much bigger than DD2 and could talk etc, in retrospect my expectations of her were far too high. The truth is I didn't really get the measure of this until DD2 approached the same age, and now my DS is 2.6 I realise what a baby he still is and how much I expected of DD1 at that age. Things like time outs and removing privileges (e.g. no TV) are not really appropriate yet I'm afraid. 2 yr olds are just lacking the rational skills to deal with all that. Sure, when there is a massive tantrum put her in a safe place (her room), to scream it out a bit and calm down, but not in a formal 'time out' sort of way, and be ready to go and take her into a big hug once you hear the screaming turn to post tantrum sobbing. Try to keep calm, try to praise her when you can, hug her more than you can possibly think is appropriate and do your best to ignore the bad stuff (remove yourself to another room and make a cup of tea). Do a sticker chart or pasta jar for good stuff but try to let the bad stuff pass fairly unnoticed.

Re the nappies - I'm iffy on that one. If you can honestly keep calm and not get angry about accidents then fine - stick with it. But if in all honesty you know that you are actually getting cross about it and angry and resentful with her, then go back to nappies for a couple of weeks. This may seem like a terrible step back but I did it with my DD2 (she potty trained easily before she turned 2, three months later I had DS, a couple of months after that once she realised DS was here to stay DD2 had a massive relapse. Had been completely potty trained for about 6 months by then. It felt like total defeat putting her into nappies but I just needed a break and a bit of sanity. I didn't get angry or make out it was some sort of a punishment. Within a couple of days she asked to go back to pants. Never looked back. Even if your DD doesn't immediately ask to go back to pants, it doesn't matter, when things are calmer again you just swap back and she will be totally fine.

Above all be kind to yourself and accept that life is going to be hard for the next few months. Getting through each day is actually an achievement. Each evening try to think about and focus on one or two things you managed well (and not on the mistakes and mayhem).