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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

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Original poster

How old is old enough for the naughty step?

21 replies

mumofthreekids · 02/11/2011 20:40

My DS2 (age 2y 1m) is a pusher. He started over a year ago with hair pulling and has now moved on to pushing. We go to a music class which he loves, and he is always as good as gold in this class, but in other group situations such as toddler group he can be a nightmare, especially if he is tired. He doesn't mind if the other child is bigger than him, or small and helpless.

When he pushes a child, I say NO, we don't hurt people, and remove him. I also try and pre-empt the pushing by following him very closely and stepping in if I can tell he is about to push. (This is tedious but at least saves me the embarrassment of him hurting someone's child!) More recently I have also been asking him to say sorry (which he does).

Is it now time to introduce the naughty step? I have heard you can do this from 2 years, but to be honest I can't imagine him understanding that he has to sit still for 2 mins! What age did you do it with your DCs, and did you find that it worked??

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RuthChan · 02/11/2011 20:59

You can introduce it now, but you may not want to keep him there for 2 minutes.
Some people say it should last for a minute for each of their years, but 2 minutes for a just 2 year old is a very long time.

An alternative to a naughty step that you could try is to simply put him in a corner of the room.
When my DS was naughty, I physically picked him up and sat him in the corner of the room facing away from everyone. He hated this. It separated him from the people and toys he was playing with and it drove home the message that his behaviour was unacceptable without being quite as strict as the naughty step.

Original poster

mumofthreekids · 02/11/2011 21:44

Yes good idea, how did you make him stay in the corner? I'm thinking I might have to hold him there!!

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RuthChan · 03/11/2011 09:18

No, I never held him there. I left him there for as long as he stayed.
The shock of being put there, sitting down, facing away from everyone and all the toys etc upset him. It then took him a few seconds to gather himself, stand up and get out of the corner.
This didn't take very long, but long enough to get the point across that he had done something naughty.

When I first introduced the naughty step I didn't hold him on there either. Just being put on was enough to make the point at such a young age.

However, his older sister requires the door at the bottom of the stairs to be closed and locked to keep her there. Therefore, DS shuts the door on himself even if I don't shut it as he thinks that's how it should be done!!!

tigerlillyd02 · 03/11/2011 10:35

I don't have a naughty step or a particular area. Mine is just moved elsewhere away from me (wherever that might be!). Usually his bedroom as we're all on one floor. I don't take him myself - just send him and he goes. And he knows as soon as he's finished his strop he can come back. So, how long this takes is entirely up to him. If he's done after 30 seconds, so be it. If it takes much longer, then that's fine too. Other than being told to go by myself, he has control over the rest. He's just turned 2 and we've been doing this for a while. However, other than one episode about 4 days ago, I've not needed to do it for several months as he got the idea straight away and stops in his tracks after the first warning. He's actually very good now (hope it stays that way!) :)

ChippingInAutumnLover · 03/11/2011 10:40

Does he enjoy the toddler group?

If he does, just tell him that if he pushes anyone you will leave - and do it! He'll soon get the message. It's bloody annoying to have made the effort to get there and leave after a few minutes, but worth it in the long run.

phlossie · 03/11/2011 10:49

I think a naughty step works well from the age of two. He needs immediate action so he can easily make the link pushing = naughty step. And 2 minutes is plenty. Also, save it for really naughty things - it has more impact then than if you use it all the time.

The golden rule is make sure what you threaten you can carry through. For example, my ds was a runner-away, and I told him that if he ran away once more, we would leave the zoo. He did, and we did - even though I didn't want to go. What I'm saying is that chipping's suggestion could be really effective if when your ds pushes someone, you say 'pushing is unkind. If you do that one more time we're going to go home.' If he then does it again you leave straight away with no negiotation - 'you pushed again. I don't like that behaviour. We're going home.' End of. You may only have to do that a couple of times - my ds didn't run away again! But, if toddler group is your lifeline and you'd hate to leave, don't threaten it. Does that make sense? I hope so.

tigerlillyd02 · 03/11/2011 10:52

I agree with the other posts - any threats must be carried out otherwise they'll take no notice of what you say whatsoever which would become more difficult as he grows :)

Original poster

mumofthreekids · 03/11/2011 14:21

Thanks all of you for sharing your helpful suggestions.

He does enjoy toddler group (as do I, but I could cope with leaving early a few times if it helps sort out this behaviour). The problem is, maybe I'm being soft on him, but I honestly don't believe that he gets cause and effect yet. I think that understanding 'if this happens, then this will happen' is a developmental stage and he's not there yet, so it won't mean anything to him. Do you think I am underestimating him? How old was your DS when he ran away in the zoo?

I guess that is the attraction of the naughty step / corner - you can use this as punishment even if he doesn't understand warnings.

Agree about following through. It's hard sometimes so thanks for reminding me! :)

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Octaviapink · 03/11/2011 14:46

I think the naughty step is totally overrated as a teaching tool.

First of all, is he tired or hungry when he behaves like this? If he is then all bets are off - no toddler can control itself when tired, hungry or overwrought. We use timeouts for any kind of violence and in your place I'd agree with Chipping - tell him that if he pushes anyone you'll leave, and do it. He does understand cause and effect - he's been experimenting with it since he first dropped food on the floor at 8m over and over again to see if gravity was there all the time. Just because they're not talking back to you yet doesn't mean they don't understand you. Explain in simple words that pushing = going home immediately. He'll try it out two or three times and may be horrified/upset when he realises that you mean it, but you should see an improvement.

ChippingInAutumnLover · 03/11/2011 14:55

Yes - I think you are understimating him :) When you go to the toddler group just say to him 'DS - no pushing, do you understand? ' If you push anyone we will go home'. Follow through on it, he will definitely 'get' it. The only thing you need to be sure of is that he knows what 'push' means.

I guess that is the attraction of the naughty step / corner - you can use this as punishment even if he doesn't understand warnings

Sorry, but I completely disagree with this, if he doesn't understand the 'rule' you would be wrong to punish him. Why do you think randomly putting him on the NS would stop him pushing?

Octaviapink · 03/11/2011 16:10

Also, you probably couldn't institute a naughty step at the toddler group and you certainly couldn't wait until you got home - he wouldn't have a clue.

ChippingInAutumnLover · 03/11/2011 18:30

Octavia - you can, anywhere can be 'the naughty spot' my batso SIL even takes a naughty spot out with her - she's barking

cheeseandmarmitesandwich · 03/11/2011 19:42

We did the naughty step from around age 2. The first few times were disastrous, she thought it was a game and would hit me, grin and then send herself off to the naughty step. But eventually it worked. I don't really time it though, I just say she has to stay until she's ready to say sorry.

cheeseandmarmitesandwich · 03/11/2011 19:42

Tgger · 03/11/2011 19:50

I think he's a bit young. Around 2 and a half I started disciplining but it was softly softly and even now (almost 3) I only use it at home for very bad offences- hitting/throwing sibling's prized toy etc.

I would do exactly as you are and I think your words "especially when he's tired" are the ones to take note of. Maybe you need to avoid toddler group/leave early when he's tired. I didn't have a pusher but I remember my DS at this age often leaving toddler group with a tantrum due to tiredness.

DD is the same now at home re tiredness- her worst behaviour comes out then. I can't ignore it any more (she's nearly 3) so do discipline, but I think at your son's age I would mostly grab her and read a story/go home/etc etc. I think when they're this young and have lost control the hope of learning much from being disciplined is rather low.

Original poster

mumofthreekids · 04/11/2011 13:42

ChippingInAutumnLover, I think I meant that he is old enough to understand the rule (no pushing) but not old enough to understand a warning (if you do this, then this will happen). Agree I may be underestimating him though!

He hit a little girl twice in gym class today so we left after the second time. In theory I do think this may be a more effective tactic than the NS - but I hope we don't have to do it too many times before he gets the message!!

Tgger, I agree about tiredness. Hopefully this tactic will address both tiredness and naughtiness??

OP posts:

ChippingInAutumnLover · 05/11/2011 01:54

Mo3k - I understood what you meant :) You are underestimating him - he's definitely old enough to understand the concept of 'if you do x - y will happen', if it's not something he's been exposed to yet it may take a few times to get it embedded and for him to believe you will follow it through. I was just saying that the only sticking part can be if they don't understand what x or y are.

Had you warned him that you would take him home if he hit someone? Did he understand why you were leaving today? Ask him in the morning why you left gym early yesterday.

Don't stress yourself out over it though, most kids go through something like this - other parents are usually OK with it as long as you deal with it in some way and don't witter on about him just expressing himself or some other shite.

Tgger · 05/11/2011 15:31

Do you really think a child age 2 and 1 month will think back to yesterday and remember why they left gym group???! My children wouldn't have had a hope. Even DD now (almost 3) would struggle to remember/relate to discipline from a day ago.

The warning and then consequence is very effective, but I don't think I implemented it this young- just didn't work. It certainly works now and has done for a while but maybe not more than 6 months at the most- ie from 2.5.

Personally I wouldn't take a just 2 year old to gym group as I think the pressures to conform lead to frustration (pushing etc). But that's just me!!!

ChippingInAutumnLover · 06/11/2011 00:45

Tgger - yes, in my experience they do. I'm surprised your DD at almost 3 is unable to do this. Do you not discuss things you did on other days? Does she not remember going to the beach in the summer or eating easter eggs last Easter? If she can remember those things, she can remember why she was told off yesterday. Even a child with limited vocab can tell you why they were in trouble the day before. Two year olds are a lot smarter than they are given credit for!

Two is old enough to start learning about taking turns, standing in a line, listening to other grown ups - this is how they learn to do those things. It's not always going to go perfectly but that is also how they learn. Admittedly you get the odd child who is just ... shall we say, reluctant to learn the rules and it's more effort than it's worth, but on the whole 2 is fine for gym & the like.

Original poster

mumofthreekids · 06/11/2011 07:34

Chipping, I am prepared to admit I may be underestimating my DS, but you are definitely overestimating him! There is honestly zero chance that he would reply accurately if I asked him why we had to leave the class early yesterday! Maybe your kids were very advanced

I do agree with you that 2 is old enough to start trying to learn these things.

OP posts:

Tgger · 07/11/2011 13:44

Yes, I do talk to my daughter now about things that happened in the past, and she is often heard saying "yesterday......" and then tells you a story about something that happened a month/several months ago. However, I think her memory and speech has only been good enough to do this for the last 6 months or even less.

I suppose if I wanted to draw attention to my daughter's negative behaviour the previous day I could but mostly I don't want to, she has moved on and so have I. I guess this is a different issue.

I agree that learning to be part of the adult world and socialisation begins at 2, but there is so much difference between a child who is just 2 and a child who is nearly 3. I have hugeley different expectations of behaviour for my daughter now than I did this time last year.

As far as groups for 2 year olds. Well, I think this is fine if it is fine with the child and the adult but I think it is realistic and kinder to some children to say "you are too young", rather than to have a stressful time when it should be fun. Much better sometimes to take this age children to unstructured sessions in the same environment.

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