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Starting to lose it with angry, violent DS 4

41 replies

PrinceCorum · 06/10/2011 09:01

My DS has always been one to push the boundaries. But in the last 2 months, since leaving nursery and starting reception class at school, things have become so challenging that my wife and I are in tears much of the time. Please share your advice on things that might help with these behaviours,a ll of which seem to happen when he is with the family but NOT at school, with the nursery reporting that he was an angel there(!):-

  1. Constantly losing his temper with mum and dad and then hitting us
  2. Shouting and hitting his little brother (aged 2)
  3. Slamming doors and trying to break things
  4. Saying the cruelest things to Mum and Dad - "I want to kill you", "I want you to go in the back of the bin lorry and get crushed" (!!)

So far we have tried: (1) ignoring, so as not to reinforce or reward with attention - very difficult - yesterday I bent down so as not to be intimidating and to talk to him at his level - he smacked me in the face so hard my nose bled... he hits so hard we find it very difficult to ignore. Plus, I'm worried about our 2 year old - we can't ignore it when he is getting hit around the head by his brother. How on earth do you use ignoring when faced with this?!; (2) taking toys away - seems to make him more angry for a bit then he forgets about the toy and doesn't seem bothered, later returning to this anfry behaviour; (3) sending him to time out on the stairs on to his room - he tries to destroy the stair gates (he can open them too), he tries to break the lights by flicking them on and off repeatedly, slams his door until the door frame gets damaged, etc. (4) analternative release - I have tried suggesting he bangs his bed or a cushion when angry - this appealed to him for 30 minutes then he got bored with the idea and gave it up (!); (5) reward charts - been there, got t-shirt, ain't working; (6) going over the top praising any good behaviour - same as 5 - tried it and it doesn't stop the hitting.

I seriouslty doubt DS has any Autistic Spectrum Disorder or ADHD - he has no communication or social skills issues, no attention issues, etc.

And I'm not looking for a diagnosis here - just would welcome some practical advice - is there anything we haven't tried that might work ?? Is it all a testosterone surge related thing that we can't really change through parenting techniques?

Again, just to re-iterate - teachers report zero probs with him in the classroom - in fact, y'day when we picked him up teacher said he had been bitten by another child and he didn't react aggressively, bite or hit back - he just told the teacher calmly and cried a bit...if only he was so thoughtful and reasonable at home...

Please help with some advice as this is putting a strain on the family

OP posts:
coraltoes · 07/10/2011 12:02

There are behavioural consultants you can get in to help with this sort of thing. Is that worth a look at if you feel you've reached the end of your own tactics?

bellamom · 07/10/2011 20:01

We haven't had such extreme behaviours but some pretty outrageous tantrums and screaming fits. We have started doing tea much earlier (around 4:30), really hyped up reward charts with afew amazing gifts once the target has been reached, and also started being terribly strict about even low-level bad behaviour, straight away it is time out on step, then it is up to room, then no show for that night, then stayin room for rest of night etc. Those steps have happened afew times and mostly everything has calmed down. we have told clearly that we do not deserve to be treated badly/rudely by him or anyone else, that we shall not accept it, if they want to be rude they must stay in room, no shows, no friends round, tea in room. It sounds harsh, but it was getting out of hand. and fingers crossed things are improving.

Good luch, really feel for you over this, I am sure it will improve soon.

bellamom · 07/10/2011 20:04

If he continues to smash things up when on time out, you could threaten with putting him outside on doorstep ??? I know horrid, but he needs to know that you are serious and this is not acceptable.

heather1 · 07/10/2011 20:21

Have you tried talking to the health visitor? Sometimes then can have useful strategies.
Also he is 4 and 4 year olds can say awful things but of course they dont really mean it and have no real understanding of the implications of what they are saying. I would suggest you dont think if it as saying cruel things, rather he is saying something to get your attention. My DS aged 4 has said some really horrible things in real anger but although his feelings are very real at the time I know he still loves me. TBH i tend to find it rather funny
You say he is well behaved at school but really he does not know how his teacher will react if he mis behaves so this may be the reason for the good behaviour. There is a real loss of control for children when they go from nursery to schoo. Routines change and it is very different from nursery. Maybe he is acting out this frustration at home.
Sorry not much advice so far! Have you tried taking him our to do something nice one to one, dad and son together? Maybe it would be possible to talk about the behaviour in a more neutral setting after some fun time together at a play park or walk together.
I think as other posters have said you need to make it clear that the unacceptable behaviour will not be tolerated. It sounds awful but you have to find his week spot e.g my ds 6 loves Wii so bad behaviour = no Will that day. Is there anything he loves to do other than taking toys away. Or offer an exciting occasion e.g going swimming just with Dad, in exchange for good behaviour. Good Luck and it will pass.
Just another thought if he is breaking things on the naughty step I think that Super Nanny uses a naughty spot in the middle of the room. Then he cannot break anything (which also gets him more attention I expect)

MissBetsyTrotwood · 07/10/2011 20:32

Wow, BertieBotts, what a fabulous post.

I find that when DS1 is charged with aggression, the best place to be is out. If he's had a bad morning before school, I try to take him to the park after school so he's absolutely exhausted by bedtime.

Good luck OP. It's so tiring, isn't it.

yummymummy345 · 07/10/2011 21:12

I am having very similar issues although with my ds at 3yo. I am consistant , has a good routine, tried the ignoring, praising the good etc all the thngs that you have done. However these are all ways to deal with the behaviour not things to prevent the behaviour, I have worked out- like others that he is reacting this way due to extreme tiredness. (due to go back to docs on MOnday for blood tests results to work out why extremely tired). People have said this behaviour is normal, it isnt IMO and as other people have said, keep things calm and earlier to bed whilst your ds is accommodating to the new school day.

MadameSin · 08/10/2011 13:46

Prince haven't read through all the posts, so forgive me if already been suggested. Have you spoken with your ds regarding any issues at school? Is he happy to go and does he have good relationships with friends? I only ask because some of his behaviours could be a result of 'bullying' at school by another child. I use that word generally as I don't like to accuse young kids of being bullies, but it's a thought

cottonreels · 08/10/2011 21:48

I find bear hugs and singing work well - try a nirsery rhyme or a made up song about how its upsetting when youre sad but lovely when youre happy. The melody seems to have some magic about it.
Also a saying I like:
Its not the severity of the punishment, its the certainty. Everytime he does something unacceptable you need to make sure you know how to deal with it and you follow through.
Reassure him you love him a lot on the good times.

Fluffymonster · 09/10/2011 16:25

"Ridiculous things trigger the hitting at present, such as putting a cup of water "in the wrong place" on a table..."

That sounds like he has a big anxiety issue, to me.

We had very similar triggers last year on holiday with our eldest dd, and we also thought about seeing a child psychologist when we got home, because her behaviour was so awful - everyone was walking on eggshells. However, soon as we got home - it stopped almost overnight. Overtiredness and anxiety was the cause - terrible combination for small kids.

So now, same dd has just started reception and although her teacher has only ever said she's had one 'lovely day' after another, and she keeps coming home with stickers for good behaviour - the anxiety has once again come out at home.

We've had tearful episodes where she's said how much she misses nursery and 'doesn't like school', and also disturbed nights where she's woken up in the early hours screaming and crying, or come into our bed for a cuddle.

Although it's not as extreme as before, we also noticed an increase in thinly-veiled aggression in week 2 of school - like 'games' where she started off 'play-hitting' one of us, but with an edge of underlying tension. Then if we pointed it out, she'd tear up, and ask for a cuddle. It's improved now, a month in, but it's all definitely anxiety-related.

Things that help for us:

  1. Dd especially loved nursery, and I always knew the change would be hard - going from being a big fish in a small pond, to a tiny fish in a bit of a lake. It's the first time children probably ever experience a 'goodbye', situation, and for some sensitive types, it's a huge loss.

We have photos from nursery and once or twice I've got them out and we've looked at them, together. She has usually had a bit of a cry, but it has also enabled us to talk about it - now she says "It's sad isn't it, when we have to move on?", but there is less bottled-up sadness. I've also found it more effective to empathise with what she says, so rather than a trying-to-encourage, "Don't be silly, you'll be fine. You'll make lots of new friends!" Just a "Yeah, it's sad sometimes", and a sympathetic hug works wonders.

We visited nursery one afternoon for a few minutes, and she had a cuddle with some of the old staff again, showed off her school uniform etc, was made a fuss of. She could also see for herself that none of her old nursery peers were there - I think it might have helped with coming to terms.

Unfortunately most of her closest nursery friends went to different schools, but we do have regular playdates with one, so there is an element of continuity.

  1. Walking home from school - is brilliant. It's about a 30min walk, but we also stop in a playground quite often. I would say she gets a LOT out of this bit of transition from school/home. It's a chance for her to reflect and chat about the day if she wants, and because we're both walking, it's less like me interrogating her for information, but she also has my undivided attention. Quite often the stories come tumbling out!

The other thing is, it's a great way of signalling to her, that she also has 1:1 time - obvously now she's in school Mon-Fri she knows there are days when her 2yo sister is home with me all day, and it may be a source of jealousy. So, on DD2's nursery days, I keep DD2 in nursery til 6pm as before, so I can do the pick up with 4yo - and we have that time after school together.

  1. Quiet time for an hr at home after school - I go and potter about, sort her out a drink and a snack and leave her alone to chill in peace. She can curl up on the settee if she wants, play, watch TV, do some colouring, look at books, whatever. Sometimes she asks for a bubble bath.

  2. We try and get her to bed a bit earlier as the school runs mean she's up earlier. Can't help the changes, but we try and do what we can about overtiredness. Still aiming for approx 11hrs sleep a night.

  3. Reasonable choices where possible are great. The sense of retaining some control in times of change helps, and pre-empts the OTT tyrannical behaviour.

lisylisylou · 09/10/2011 22:47

My ds is 7yrs old. He can be great most of the time but can be very moody. We went through terrible twos with him and never got out of them it feels until now. I have noticed a huge link between the wii, tv programmes and his behaviour! We have had to monitor it hugely because it can all send him angry, upset and we need him to remain calm. I was told by his head master that the tv and wii games are there exciting his brain up to 10 times of a normal excited brain (pretty scary). We now have the tv off for large portions of the day and he's a lot calmer. Also look for other triggers, when is he hungry, the above, tiredness, talk to teachers about friends?

Generally, I count to 3 when I want him to do something (like getting dressed or brushing teeth) If he is angry I will give a warning and if he is still continuing with anger or whining or other related behaviour it is timeout. If he is lashing out, for me I put my son straight into his bedroom for timeout. I'll give him a good 5-10 minutes to calm down and I will then go in and ask if he's calmer and if he says no, he will stay in for a further 5-10 minutes. It takes us both out of the battle and gives us both time to clear our heads. We'll talk about it after when we are both calm.

You will know what your son loves doing the most, I can't believe that he is spending whole weekends being angry. There has to be something he loves to do. My son loves playing on the wii but I will only allow him to play once a week on a saturday afternoon. He will spend the whole week waiting for his wii and if he has been good then I will give him 10 minutes and if he is bad then I will take 10 minutes away. We add up all the minutes at the end of the week and he will play upto that time he has been rewarded with.

I usually find though sending him out to play with friends (if possible) also releases a lot of stress from school and after school activities. We take our kids to acting/musical stuff which is good for social skills and confidence and we take him to jujitsu as he was being bullied but the guys who run them are great role models! My son also loves reading as well and has always done so which also helps to keep him level as well. The beano, dandy etc, volcanoes, dinosaurs! I've also found keeping myself and our home as calm as possible as well.

I don't know if any of that helps. A book called Happy Kids by Cathy Glass is fantastic which I really recommend to you. No psychobabble just a foster mother who has found her own way of handling difficult kids. Get it on Amazon on Kindle. I wish you all the luck in the world as I remember the tantrums very clearly and I remember weeping and it sounds like you have one very clever little boy on your hands!!

CheerfulYank · 09/10/2011 22:53

My DS is also 4 and having a rough time.

I've just started to think of him as a puppy who needs lots of exercise and sleep and treats for good behavior, otherwise he chews my shoes, i.e. makes life miserable. :)

I'm sorry I don't have anything constructive to add, just wanted to lend support.

CheerfulYank · 09/10/2011 22:54

Also I am a big believer in "striking while the iron is cold" , which means talking to him about his behavior when he's calm and in a good mood. Talk to him about hitting, why he does it, and what he thinks should happen when he does.

PrinceCorum · 12/10/2011 08:24

Thanks for the advice people, keep it coming. There are indeed things he likes to do with Mum and with Dad - he's off swimming with Mum on the weekend and with me he loves reading up about trains and planes and playing (non-violent I should stress) computer games with me.

OP posts:
Oblomov · 12/10/2011 08:45

The posts from Fluffy and Bertie, are exceptionally good. HTH, OP.

Georgimama · 12/10/2011 13:24

Since this thread started I have been making a few changes One is making a big effort to spend a good 30 minutes playing - properly playing - with DS after school. I do worry he feels pushed out by the arrival of his 10 week old sister. The other thing I have done is to try not to end up in a war of attrition when he gets shouty - I get down on his level, take his hands in mine, look him in the eyes and talk quietly. Weirdly it works.

Georgimama · 12/10/2011 13:25

Also in the past I have been guilty of giving in to whinging, so lately no means no. He is whinging far less as he knows there is no point.

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