I need a bit of hand-holding over tomboy dd2...

[MumtoGirlBoy]

(I have namechanged to protect the innocent...)

Ever since dd2 was two years old, she has wanted to be a boy. I don't mean just wanting to dress like a boy and play with boy's things, I mean, properly want to be a boy. Whenever I refer to her as a girl, she point blank refuses to acknowledge it and corrects me,"No mummy, I'm a boy".

Often she says she 'wants a willy' and that she wishes she wasn't a girl. She dresses in boy's clothes most of the time. She chooses quite edgy, cool stuff such as military coats, shirts and ties - quite cool actually ) or she likes to dress up as a vampire, Stormtrooper etc...

Her best friends are all boys, and she says that one day she's going to marry a girl. In fact I've noticed she seems to have something of a 'crush' on a girl in her class - she never normally notices girls nor particularly wants to socialise with them, but she will not stop going on about this girl and blushes and acts strangely whenever she sees her.

Please don't think I'm being closed minded or anything. I am absolutely in love with dd2, I think she's amazing and dh and I strongly encourage both our daughters to be who they are. I think I'm ok with it as she gets older, so long as she's happy. But sometimes I just worry for her, especially her self-confidence, how she'll fit into society, whether she might get teased as she gets older, whether she may feel uncomfortable as a woman and have gender issues.

She's still young, only just turned 6, and I suppose a lot of people who read this probably think I'm worrying too much... I kind of hope I am! but she doesn't seem to be showing any signs of becoming 'girly' and I'm not sure that it's just a phase. It has after all been going on for four years now. I'd be grateful to hear from anyone who has had a similar dd and how they've grown up.

Thanks for getting this far!

I was very similar as a child and even into my early 20's, i had many male friends but hardly any female (i still find it hard to get along with females), most of my female friends at school (only had a couple) have now come out as lesbians.

It sounds like you are doing a great job with your dd and letting her be who she wants to be is the best thing you can do for her, i'm sure it will make her feel that she can be open with you about who she is as she grows older.

i was the same until i was about 13years old. I was on football team, rugby team and spent my days up tree's, fixing bikes and running away from mum who wanted me to wear a dress!
I still live in trousers, dont wear makeup often and am happier doing mannuel stuff than girly stuff.
Just carry on as you are, your doing grand job :)

my poor mum swore i was off kissing boys as a teen but i just preferred their compnay :)

This is such a lovely, reassuring thread! My dtd (6) has been our 'boy girl' ever since she was able to articulate her desire to be a boy. She chose her older brother's clothes as soon as she was able to dress herself, and the idea of wearing anything remotely feminine has always been out of the question. I buy her boys clothes & shoes of her own, and her hair is cut short. She plays with boys, her close friends are all boys, she likes to do 'boy stuff' and she considers herself a boy in every way.

I love her confidence to assert her individuality. She is happy as a boy - to be forced to dress as and 'be' a girl at the moment would devastate her. I hope she will continue to be as confident with her decisions as she gets older.

A different perspective from someone (namechanged for this) who was born a girl but was really a boy inside.

I spent my early life believing I was a boy, my teen years desperate to be a "normal" girl, my 20s denying I had any issues with it, and now only in my 30s have I finally confronted who I am and come to peace with it.

Had the internet existed when I was a child I would most certainly have gone the route of delayed puberty and surgery to become an anatomical male. As it was, I just felt different and unlucky and ripped off -- and like nobody else was like me in the world. Of course now I know that's different.

Making things more complicated is that I'm a straight woman so would have been a gay male. Transgendered, gay, short, likely not very good at passing. Maybe in a way it's best that I didn't change myself!

I think my parents know deep down what I am, though neither would say it out loud. My dad is happy to have his "boy" (I am very sporty) but I think I was a real disappointment to my mum though she loves me anyway of course.

I also thought I would never find a partner who would accept me, til I did find one. What seems like an impossible and despairing future when you're a teen suddenly seems much more plausible at 30 once you've been around the world a time or two. But the important part is I needed to come to terms with myself and love myself before I could let anyone else love me.

To all parents faced with a kid like I was, I implore you to allow that child to find his/her own way with the best support you can give. It worries me to hear that a parent is "under advice from a child psych" as I fear that can only end badly for the child. Making her feel that there's something wrong with her needing fixing so that she can be "normal" is exactly the wrong way to go. Helping her figure out who she is and where she's going without judgements or pressure is what's needed.

Most kids with a bit of gender dysphoria grow out of it, but for kids like me it can be decades before they feel like they are accepted and worthy people in society, and not ashamed of who they are. Even for this I have namechanged! . So clearly it's a pretty deep-seated thing that I'll probably never entirely get past. Don't let your kid be like me. If you love him/her, you'll get past any of your preconceived ideas of what a son/daughter or girl/boy is and just do what's best for your child.

MumtoGirlBoy sounds like you're doing a great job, keep it up!

Thank you for your message, she wnet to a child psych once for other problems, borderline aspergers and big toiletting issues, not this, he as we already do just said let her be herslef, w ehave no intention of changing her or forcing her to be anything that she doesn't want to be. So please don't be worried and it will not end up badly for DD. We have never made her feel bad or that what she feels is anything other than normal.

My dd has Aspergers, and the confussion of he sexuality if often put down to this from profetionals . I love dd1 for who she is and what she grows up to be. At the moment she is sulking because school are making her play netball and netballs for girls.

I really hate the word 'tomboy'- I'm sure if people stopped using words like that the sort of problems that are caused by these seemingly vast differences between the genders apparently even in childhood would just dissolve (if you see this as a problem- although if she's unhappy about it, of course it will be).

Do you call her a tomboy? And tell her she's wearing boy clothes and doing boy things?

Cannot believe people send their kids to psychiatrists because they want to wear trousers instead of skirts. That's what it boils down to.

quirrel, I'm sorry you hate the word tomboy, but it seems to satisfy a certain degree of dd2's confusion. She's said to me, if I'm a girl but want to be a boy what am I? She finds it a useful word when other children ask her why she wears the clothes she does and participates in 'boys' activities.

I also hate the vast gender differences that seem to be laid out for children these days. When I was a girl I wore trousers, played with Start Wars figures and on my bike (had a db so it felt normal). I also liked dolls and preferred to play with girls. but never felt the need to define myself as either gender.

I would never send dd2 to a psychologist as I don't see dd's ways as problematic, but I do hope she won't be bullied one day and I have the feeling already that the parents of the one girl that dd2 is so fond of don't want to encourage their friendship and push their dd towards 'girlier' girls.

'Cannot believe people send their kids to psychiatrists because they want to wear trousers instead of skirts. That's what it boils down to'

I'm sure if your child had other issues (possible Aspergers syndrome) then you would have reason to speak to Psychiatrist about a child being confussed about their gender? Aspergers syndrome can make a child confussed about many things including gender so whats wrong with mentioning it to Psychiatrist?

Don't understand whats wrong with the word tom-boy either .

Dd1 has Aspergers, she's confused about many things, she wears boys clothes, she plays with the boys (rather than the girls) and at times she is confused about who she is, on top of this she gets bullied for being different (not just for being a tom-boy), it makes me sad the way others treat her and if i thought dressing as a girl would help her socialy then i would try my best to encourage it but at the end of the day my dd is the way she is and why should she change to fit into society? To me she if perfect the way she is, its other people that have the problem.

What Marne said.

I saw this article www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/sep/14/tomboy-girls-will-be-boys in the Guardian the other week, inspired by a film about a tomboy and written by a female writer who was a tomboy as a child. This bit in particular caught my attention:

"I played the tomboy role until the age of 12, when suddenly I decided I needed flowery Laura Ashley skirts and mules with 5in heels (my poor mother must have thought her boat had come in). Later, I did a little unimpressed dabbling with men, then became much more enthused by lesbianism and now I'm going out with a gay man, so who knows what it all means?"

I think human behaviour is much more fluid than tomboy/girly girl/gay/lesbian/straight/bi can really define.

While searching for that article I found another one by the same author from a few years back that was also quite interesting: www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/dec/27/tomboys-girls-family.

Interesting, mushy peas. Sometimes I wonder if dd2 will abandon her tomboy image for another, alternative one when she gets older. Who knows? Thank you for the links and I wholeheartedly concur with the quote about human sexuality. I think there are shades of grey yet when we are born a certain gender there is a huge raft of expectation to conform awaiting us. More than ever nowadays- and it starts with the lack of unisex toys and clothes available.

Agree with Marne.

Really? You see absolutely nothing wrong with the word tomboy?

I have Aspergers (for what it's worth) and when I was little I hated skirts, hated it when my mum dressed me up and plaited my hair, spent most of my time being muddy in the garden, didn't much like playing with the girls because they were so complicated, but there were only three boys in my class. I also loved dolls and making things up, reading Malory Towers, doing things with colour, paint, sewing, whatever.
Gosh, do I now discover that I was a gender-confused child? NO! My parents had a 21st century grip on the "situation" and realised that it is Okay for a girl to like traditional boy things and that I didn't want to be a boy and especially that I wasn't going to turn out liking girls just because like girls is a traditionally male thing to do and I happened to like doing other traditionally male things. I wasn't sent to a psychiatrist so I could work out if I'm going to have a nervous breakdown at 15 because of these very natural things I liked doing. When we went through the diagnostic process for AS, my mum would never, ever have brought that sort of thing up when the Dr. asked us about my childhood. No one made a fuss of it, so I never came out and assigned myself a gender. It just wasn't important to me, I never saw interests as being male or female either, until I got older and it became obvious. Out of the huge spectrum of "male" things to do, people always pick sexuality to accompany whatever other "male" hobby they like doing. So simple...it's not natural, it's traditional.
If you take away all her preferences towards things like clothes, why else would she come up with this idea of wanting to be a boy? Surely it's not some core thing inside her that grew in the womb, kids at that age don't have a sophisticated idea of what gender is apart from the boys is blue and girls is pink and it spirals out from there. And that sort of conviction must be ruled by preference i.e. she really likes playing football, so then she's convinced that, in order for people to take her playing football seriously, she has to declare herself boyish/ not a girl.

Quirrel, I'm sorry but I'm finding it hard to follow your argument. For a start though, I hope you are not accusing me of sending my dd to a psychologist or inferring that I don't have 'a 21st Century grip on the situation' (ironic though considering our society is in may ways more sexualised than ever).

All I can say is that dd2's insistence on being called a boy has come completely from her. Dh and I encourage her to participate in all kinds of activities; ballet (which she hated), drumming (which she loves), swimming, cycling, reading, Tae Kwondo, whatever... regardless of her gender. We/she simply thought she might enjoy them. She loves playing with Sylvanian families, sometimes even Barbie, Playmobil dragons, pirate ships, dinosaurs, Bakugan, drawing, dressing up (usually as a hideous beast).

And I disagree with your argument that gender awareness isn't inherent, because if it was then the difference between girls and boys would not be as polarised as it is. Yes, society is partly to blame, but I do believe it is inherent. Both my dds have been raised the same as much as possible. Dd1 is what I would call a typical girl. She likes dresses, leggings, climbing trees, riding her bike, listening to music, dancing, trying on make up, and liked nothing more than to dress as a Disney Princess when she was younger. Dd2 insisted on Bob the Builder.

If anything, I've always joked that dd2 is the 'sexist' one as she is so insistent on being a boy and is vehemently against girls and girl-related things. I've tried to encourage gender neutrality and am constantly saying to her that she can be a girl and like all the things she likes, be whoever she wants to be, and being a girl will not stop that. However does not seem to accept my argument and she insists that she dresses in a certain way, speaks in a gruff voice and is only interested in playing with boys. She's the one who gets funny about being referred to as a girl.

I still cannot see the problem with the word tomboy. If she won't let me refer to her as a girl, and she's not strictly speaking a boy, the tomboy is as close as it gets!

So just out of curiosity, MumtoGirlBoy what would you do if your daughter decided in a few years that she really was a boy and wanted to become one physically?

Your last post makes me wonder if you've considered this at all. Your daughter sounds an awful lot like I was at that age. Very insistent, even angry if I was called a girl and I did not suffer the fools well who insisted that I was.

She may not feel like she's "getting funny" at all, and your argument may be a non-argument as she may not even see why you would insist that she can be a girl when she feels she's very much not like one. Picture someone saying to you "oh you can be a man and still like all the things you like" and hear how funny that sounds to you as a woman?

So not that it's 100% or even 50% sure that your daughter will turn out transgendered, but how are you preparing yourself for it if she is?

Missmisunderstood, yes I am preparing myself for it being a possibility one day. Of course I've considered it. But when I've mentioned it to people in RL, I felt I've been humoured because 'she's only six'.

I think it's fair to explain to dd2 from an early age that her gender doesn't have to define or limit her. I don't see anything wrong in raising her with such ideals in the first place. If that doesn't satisfy her, then one day yes I am prepared to hold her hand and help her through the next step.

Mumto- I didn't mean to pinpoint you about the psychologist thing, I was talking about other posters i.e. fivegomadindorset.

As I was typing I did think the 21st century comment was a little ironic (22nd century, hopefully??)...but as far as I can see your only problem would be if she was really unhappy over the whole thing. She seems fine. Your title implies that you find girls doing "boy" things unnatural and oh why did it have to be your DD (possibly I was being v. unreasonable, but it kind of came across that way). When I read the thing about showing signs of being "girly" it got my back up a bit.

quirrel, thanks for your post. I'm sorry my title implied that and it wasn't meant to come across like that at all. There's no way I feel 'why oh why does it have to be my dd' (in fact I'm proud of the way she is, I admire her for being true to herself and I love her just for being her. In my eyes she's perfect!). All that I'm concerned about is whether she will be happy as she gets older, at the moment life is pretty simple but things might get harder as she gets older. That's all.

Excuse my clumsy wording, the 'girly' bit for example, and having read that back I can see why it got your back up. All I can say is that it wasn't meant as negatively as it might have sounded. I meant it in defence of anyone who might come on here and poo-poo her tendencies as just a phase, and the 'showing no signs of being girly' was meant to illustrate just that - it's not meant in the sense that I have any longing for her to change. Bet that makes no sense!

Your DD is lucky to have you MumtoGirlBoy! Whatever happens you two will handle it fine, sounds like.