Extreme sibling rivalry

[Tireless]

Bright ideas needed for a problem i'm having with my five year old daughter. Her behaviour towards my two year old daughter is causing so much unhappyness and tension in our home and we are really struggling with what to do next.

Basically the problem is that she spends a large part of the day shouting at, bossing, snatching and pulling around her younger sister. To give some idea of the intensity of it, i timed her this morning for a two hour period. Every seven mins. on average i was having to ask her to stop...snatching, shouting, bossing about e.t.c.

We have turned ourselves inside out trying to psycho-analyse the cause. I make sure she has time with me on her own, i ensure i play with them both together teaching things like sharing, taking turns etc.
We have tried explaining, but she thinks it's funny. So i tried showing how cross i was (in other words yelling at her) which works for a few mins. but this is not how i want to raise her.
She just cannot leave 2 year old alone.

Of course i realise that siblings argue/fight/wind each other up etc. But this seems to be more like bullying, the two year old cannot protect herself/fight back and therefore spends a big chunk of her day crying/screaming/hanging off me and has now developed a stammer (which may, or may not be connected)

If i take five year old out on my own she is an absolute angel. She's funny, happy and just good company. As soon as they are together the obsession with two year old starts. As soon as we walk through the door she makes a beeline to find her and start antagonising her.

Has anybody any experience of this extreme form of rivalry. By the way, five year old started off very pleased with having new sister, problem is about a year old now. We have soul searched for what triggered it but can't think of any 'incident' And to be honest what i really need is, ways to handle the situation, because i'm worried what effects all this must be having on two year old. If she is playing with something and five year old comes near her she either holds the toy tightly or drops it and runs. Please, any ideas/advice/shared experiences would be so much apprieciated.

Oh dear Tireless, well what I would do is this, don't know if it is the perfect answer but here goes. Praise 5 year old highly when she is a good girl, anything that she does that you are happy with tell her that is wonderful etc etc.

When she starts on her sister remove her immediately from the room to sit somewhere on her own. Try the bottom step of the stairs, in the hall or on the landing. Somewhere there is nothing to amuse her. She will scream, shout and cry. Tell her when she is going to be kind and caring and love her sister she can come back and not before. You must do this everytime she is unkind so that your message 'sinks' in.

Does your 5 yr old have a baby doll that she loves and cuddles, show her how she must care for it and her sister the same.

The last thing, sorry about this one but have a listen to what you say to the 5 year old, is she repeating what you say to her sister? Good Luck. R.

Tireless - can't give you ideas/advice but can give you shared experience! My son (4 and a half) has been like this with his sister (now 2) almost since birth - 'obsession' was the word I used too. Had an appalling stage of him hitting her all the time, now he's eased off on that but has worked out he can wind her up instead (taking fave toy, latest book etc.) and wind us up by persuading her to behave badly (we think he's hoping that we'll have to tell her off). I ran myself ragged in the early days as every time dd slept, I'd be there giving him endless Quality Time but to no effect. Like your daughter, alone with me, he's fun to be with and then you walk through the door or she wakes up ... I find it's a particular problem after school. The only positive note so far is that things have improved in the past six months - he did play more with her over the summer hols (when bored!) and likes to 'teach' her things so he does sometimes 'read' to her which she adores. Perhaps you could channel your daughter's need to boss her sister by something similar? They also sometimes play better when I'm not there - I suppose they find their own level, then. In the very early days, I remember leaving them watching a video and returning after a few moments to find ds had gone across to sit by the bouncy chair and hold his sister's tiny hand ... Awww! As I say, I have no ideas either - just lots and lots of sympathy.

I agree with Rhiannon that it sounds like she needs very clear boundaries to be set. I think that kids need to know that their parents won't allow them to act on their feelings when it is hurtful to others/themselves.
However, I also think it can help for kids to know that you understand that they feel angry/upset/irritated and that it is ok and normal to feel this way sometimes. It might help to occasionally acknowledge that her sister can be annoying/babyish/demanding of your time etc, while making it clear that certain responses are unacceptable.
I think it's great that you're monitoring the situation. My sister and I had an intermittently rocky relationship as children and I wish our parents had intervened on some occasions and stopped our worst excesses. As adults we get on really well, though, so don't lose hope!

Message withdrawn

Thankyou so much for all your replies, it's such a relief to be taken seriously and offered constructive advice. So many of my friends/family try to reassure me that it's just a phrase that she will grow out of, while this may be true i feel i can't just sit back and wait for that to happen. The other piece of advice i'm often given is to ignore the 'bad' behavhiour, which is so unrealistic, how can you ignore the fact that your two year old is being bullied by her sister?

I feel I've been given some really helpful and realistic advice as well as much needed support.
I think i need to pull myself together in a way, as i have started to feel worn down and defeated which doesn't help anyone. So onwards and upwards ....(hopefully)

Tireless, I've read your post and the resulting messages with great interest, having a 7 year old and 2 year old of my own. I find the degree of rough physical contact and shouting pretty frightening at times, and although my two get on mostly OK for now, and the 2 year old is showing no sign of being traumatised, I feel that an out and out rivalry situation could rear its ugly head at any time in the future. And as Dh and I are both only children, we are really inexperienced on the sibling rivalry front.

I won't repeat what's already been said, but I thought this might be of interest:

We have a big box of brio trains and track. It belonged to my eldest but he has given it to the youngest. Last week, after a train session with the youngest,I began to pick up the track and put it back in the box and, because it was his mess, I asked the 2 year old to help me. He did this with utter eagerness. I was really pleased with him and quite surprised - my 7 year old is notorous for not clearing away his toys. Over the years we have had lots of words about this. Anyway, unknown to me, my 7 year old was looking on at the industrious 2 year old. I decided this was a great time for a little positive praise - and a surprise reward - so I told the 2 year old what an excellent boy he was and when we had cleared up I gave him a sweet. Talk about putting the oldest son's nose out of joint! - especially when I told him the youngest deserved the sweet for being so tidy and obedient. Since this, I have noticed in the oldest a bigger motivation to please mummy - I think he feels the youngest might overtake him.

I am amazed how much effect this little incident has had. Rivalry to be good - now there's a thought!

So,Tireless, don't know it this would work for you, but some extra special praise and/or reward for the youngest might give the oldest serious pause for thought.

Oh yes, and the other thing I'll add it this: I find it all to easy to devote my time to telling off or sending my oldest to his room if a sibling rivalry issue is getting out of hand. So even though the youngest is being good, he can end up getting no atttention for it, which is really unfair and can set a bad precedent: bad = attention, good = nothing. So I am trying to divert attention to the youngest as much as possible, thereby depriving oldest son of an audience to play up to.

I think Bloss's point about power is a good one. It sounds as though your daughter is exercising her power over the one person in the house who is more vulnerable than her, who she has the power to influence. In addition to all the discipline issues, can you find a way to give her more power over other areas of her life? Perhaps she needs more responsibility over something, something that is 'her' job/decision/whatever? Just a thought.

I have the same problem with my three year-old and 15 month old...the older one justifies his behaviour by saying "but I dont like Jack"....I am finding it very difficult to cope with the situation...it is very emotionally demanding and challenging...I get very very upset seeing my little one bullied, tormented, pushed etc...and probably dont help the situation by getting quite hysterical and aggressive with the older one...I do think that the standard behaviourial advice doesnt apply in this situation...you cannot ignore the "bad"...you have to jump in and rescue the little one. It gets even worse when his cousin comes to play - the older one encourages the cousin to join in and gang-up on the little one. I find it really devasting that my child is capable of being this cruel....where did we go wrong...other "naughty" behaviour I can take in my stride - but this is dreadful. Is it best to separate out everything they do for a while -- or force them to play and cooperate?

I am so relieved to find that other older children are the same as mine. My sons are just three and just one and I can hardly leave them in a room together. It is actually easing off a bit now that the younger one is walking and playing better but I can sympathise with all your comments, I have been (and still am...) there! I'll be interested to follow this chain to see if anyone has any tips about how to ease the tension. I have been wondering where I went wrong when I see my own child being such a rough bully.

I can totally sympathise with what knackered and Hilary has written as my son and daughter are nearly four and 18 months.I run myself round in circles trying to get my eldest to stop being rough with his sister.I am constantly amazed at how crafty my son can be and also how awful I can be too.Sometimes I get to the end of the day feeling a total failure and also totally devastated by my sons (and my own)behaviour.It's very hard for me at the moment to maintain a consistency with regards to discipline/time out/treats etc as your emotions etc are being challenged SO much minute after minute.It has helped HUGELY reading this thread as you cannot help but feel alone when you're in the thick of the day.I'm sorry I cannot give any helpful advice but I can add to the list of people who are all indeed going through a similar tricky patch! Good luck everyone!

I often feel like a failure at the end of the day too. I get so stressed that I find it hard to keep my cool. I have noticed some improvement in my older son since I started being very OBVIOUS about how I treat the little one. 'He shouldn't have that because it is yours so I am just going to gently take it from him. Could fetch him something really nice to play with instead?' or 'Look, he is giving you his toy to play with, isn't he a kind brother? He wants you to be happy.' I know it lays it on a bit thick, especially all day long but I do hear my older son being the same way with his brother more and more often now.
He still pushes and hits him, sometimes for no reason other than that my younger son happens to be within reach, but it is getting better and sometimes they play SO well together now and laugh and laugh at each other.
It makes it easier to be calm and level headed during the really stressful times because you can see more and more good behaviour pushing through the bad. In every other way, my older son is such a lovely caring boy who is wonderful with other people's babies and younger siblings...but they are no threat...maybe that is the reason?

things have got a lot better. I think that we were going through an extreme patch. however I took the rewarding "good" behaviour to heart...my oder one saw a book that he wanted...so he was allowed it if he was kind to his brother ...this went on for 10 days...I would remind him about what he was going to get and why he was going to get it....and it worked...and the good behaviuor has been maintained...sometimes they need to just break the cycle of a bad habit

Funny, things have really eased off in our house too - they play quite well now and the horrid bit seems to have passed.

Well I have read this thread with interest, but I have to say one thing that makes me laugh. I have a 3 yr old and a 1 yr old and the only person my 3 yr old regularly hits, pushes or generally torments is her sister. However I have noticed the 1 yr old gets her own back too. I am always doing the 'ignore the bully, and cuddle the baby' thing, but when the baby was just 9 months and crawling happily on my lap, the 3 yr old came up to me (not touching her sister) and the baby starting screaming and acting as if her sister had really bashed her!! Talk about manipulating the situation! Now if either one is on my lap, the other makes damn sure they are too, if this is by pushing, pulling or hitting then that is what they do. You have to lauch cos the oldest one is now getting a real taste of her own medicine!

Sometimes they are fine, they reserve the worst behavour for when I am around, and compete for my full attention.

Thing is cause my youngest now 2.5 has been used to being bullied by his big bro he doesn't even react now but hes now a big boy and my eldest whos never even fell over is in for a shock when he retaliates... but i think ur diff to ur first n other children i was so scared of my eldest falling etc i ended up not giving him enough freedom where my youngest i know can look after himself

Also i agree it is for attention. .

This is a very old thread.
The OP's 5yr old is now 19yrs old and may well be on MN herself!

I'd love to hear how they are as teenagers!

Quite happy to update - I was on this thread with a 3 year old harassing his 1 year old brother ..... they are now 21 and 19 and have a very civilised and respectful relationship. They are at uni and visit each other in each other’s cities, play sport together etc. They are chalk and cheese personality wise. Had little to do with each other at secondary school - but didn’t fight.

So moral of the story - IME - is it is a phase - don’t over react (wish I hadn’t got cross) - wish I had just intervened gently.

Had 2 girls after that - now teenagers - they are a pita....and their bickering gets me down! Need to follow my own advice.