Are your toddler's 'routines' bordering on obsessive ?

[Munchkinsugarpie]

My 2and a half yr old son seems to be developing more and more obsessive behaviour that - if you read too much - suggests almost autistic behaviour, so I wonder if anyone else has experienced similar things.

I know that routines = security for them, i.e. every night, we do bath, milk, clean teeth and bed, (in that order) BUT, he won't settle unless he has his cars (about 5 of them) lined up next to the bed, with his juice on one side of them and some milk on the other. Then we have a story, and then oddly, he insists on taking his pyjama top off and only then will he go to sleep.

Now these firm routines are spilling over into the day, i.e., he's won't eat unless his knife, spoon and fork are on the table. He won't get into the car unless he's wound down the back window as far as it will go (sod the weather!) and then, he'll let himself be strapped in.. I've noticed a lot more of these little peccadillos creeping in and he's getting quite obstinate about them. I've tried to divert his attention from them, but he won't be fooled! Is this the norm? I'd love to hear from you wise sages.....

It sounds very similar to my daughter at a similar age. Used to insist in putting tin cans in the cupboard in a particular order, had to have her dolls lined up on the floor just so, framed photos arranged in the same pattern etc. Even now, has to arrange food in the shopping trolley so that nothing overlaps.

She's 4 now and it has eased off, but like you, we "joked" that she was autistic. From talking to friends, I think it's pretty common. Quite good fun for teasing - not that I would EVER advocate that!

I think this is very very normal, though rather on the young side. My eldest certainly went through this stage, but is basically through it now, (he's 4 and a bit), the youngest hasn't started yet (nearly 2.5).

It's good that you recognise it, sometimes parents get caught up in doing ridiculous things for their children. Try and go along with things to some extent, as long as it is not a major inconvenience to you. This sort of obsessions do give a child some sort of sense of control over their lives, but I do believe that they should still be able to recognise that ultimately you are the boss, you are in charge, not them, and some things are not acceptable.

Munchkinsugarpie - this sounds like similar behaviour to my eldest ds at your son's age. He too had funny routines especially at bedtimes, these have now more or less disappeared (he's now 5) but he's still quite a perfectionist about things. At 2.5 yrs they are just starting to assert their independence over their environment and you of course and this is what it sounds like to me. Unless it's anything dangerous that he wants to do just go along with it and show little reaction - he'll soon get sick of doing it too! As for worrying about autism, I'm sure he's just a normal little boy so stop torturing yourself. I think we probably all know too much these days and end up worrying unnecessarily. Is he your eldest? Mine is and I'm sure they are usually the most insecure out of all your children and are perhaps more 'highly strung' than the others. He sounds like quite a clever little boy as a lot of 2 yr olds are more interested in running about being silly than in laying the table!

Hi Munchkinsugarpie,
My Mum has exactly the same thing with my little sister ( now age 8) and again she used to wonder about autism, and again it is now clear that she is definitely not. Although she is still very keen on 'order' (saying that, her bedroom's a tip!) and gets edgy if plans change suddenly or her world is disrupted in any way - but I think that a lot of children are like that anyway. It's helped her a lot to have my daughter around her so much as she has had to adapt to toddler-logic, which is possibly about as unpredictable as you can get!
I really think your son sounds fine- it's just a shame it makes life that little bit more difficult. At one stage with my sister (I think she was about 3) she wouldn't have her bedding changed at all not even removed from the bed without a screaming fit. So Mum had to take it off wash it, dry it and get the same set back on without her seeing - madness!
Incidentally, my Mother has just completed a course on the study of Autism (not because of my sister LOL!) and apparently there are so many traits that people put down to little 'habits' that are actually on the autistic spectrum but which don't mean that you are automatically autistic at all.

Hi, just to reiterate all the replies so far, we had all the stuff about the cars, the drinks, in fact, the 'can you get me a cup of cold water from the fridge' has endured, as has the 'I'm going to the loo and it's a poo so can you come and wipe me' mantra, and ds is five and a half. I really feel he does it to create order and to have a bit of control.

Phew thanks you guys! I'm really grateful for your replies. And KMG, you're right. I know I must take control about some things but it's sometimes easier to let him have his way instead of the shouting tantrum. I'm lucky he's also quite distractable, so that I can try and draw his attention away. Chanelno5 |(what a great name!) - he's my one and only, so no clues there! I don't think he's really insecure... probably wildly spoilt - and Lizzer - the story of the bedclothes really rings true! I find myself tricking him a lot of the time so he doesn't spot I've moved something.... then I feel smug cos I've outwitted a 2 and a half yr old! Gosh I'm smart.... and I was glad to learn that your mum's course on Autism probably covers these little habits, but you know, it's easy when you read too much to label all sorts of behaviour with the wrong tags isn't it?

Thanks again! I think I feel better now..

Munchinsugarpie, yes, yes and definately, yes!!. I tend to be a bit stricter about not succumbing to obsessive behaviour aas I'm a bit concerned about varying degrees of such behavious in the adults in dh's family.

I just don't have the patience for the precise parking of various toy vehicles before ds can even consider going to the toilet!! - must learn to chill more...

My son (aged 4) has a definite and insisted-upon little routine of saying night night in a particular way and order to all his bears etc at bedtime, which has been going on since he was 2, and he won't settle without it. Funnily enough, we have made sure that his little sister (now nearly 2) has a much shorter bedtime routine with far fewer bears....! She is now starting to be definite about how things are done in all sorts of areas of life, and we're remembering now how her brother was the same. I'm sure it's all a completely normal part of toddlerhood.

I'm getting worried about my son's "oddness"... please help. I just can't decide if he's displaying normal toddler behaviour or if there's something wrong. The problem is basically that he has some very strange and non-negotiable thoughts on how certain things should be. For example he can't bear things- food especially but other things too- to be broken or disordered or not to conform with his perception of how things should be. He gets extremely upset if I open packaging for him- eg take the lid off a yogert pot, open a tin with a tin opener, take the wrapper off a biscuit etc- if his dinner is cut up or just doesn't look how he thinks it should. I just don't think I can cope with any more hysterical demands for me to mend a fried egg! He also goes bananas if eg I take a different route to wherever we're going from the one he expects. He's still very "oral"- exploring all sorts of things with his mouth and lips. The way he eats has to be seen to be believed- food is explored with his lips- sort of kissed really- before eventually being eaten or rejected. His eye contact is often poor and he gets distressed sometimes if I ask him to look at me so I can see that he's listening. On the positive side he's very affectionate, kind, generally eager to please and has good speech, (though he seems loath to use it to tell me what's wrong when these incidents occur- the level of his distress means that tears and whines are almost inevitable).

He is 3 at the end of March and has a twin brother. The boys are so different, which is lovely and funny and wonderful and also sometimes leads to me becoming anxious because it's too easy to compare them and start worrying about one or other of them developmentally. I try to be alert to this and generally stay fairly relaxed about what they're doing- I know that kids go through phases but this one is worrying me a lot. Any advice gratefully received...

Scummymummy, whilst I do not want to undermine how you are feeling, could it simply be that your son is truly a unique character displaying his developing personality?

My daughter is the absolute opposite of me and when she was little (and even now as she heads towards her teens)I am concerned that her chaotic, dizzy, approach to life will not help her at all in life. However, I have found that some forms of extreme behaviour have only been a phase and other elements of her personality have grown on me (or I've learnt to live with and love). Of course she'd not be the same without them. It has at times been an uphill struggle learning to cope with the fact that she does not like or see the need for order and routine but it has also meant that I have had to relax a little. I have had to learn from her.

You do seem particularly worried and therefore I would suggest you talk to your GP or health visitor, you know your son best... but IMHO it seems he is simply pushing the boundaries. Could an event have made him feel insecure an dso in need of controlling his environment? I have always needed to do things in a certain way, and have always needed a control on life that may seem a little obsessive, for a while it stopped me doing other things but now, so long as I approach things methodically and in a certain way I am fine. Others can be infuriated by this as I am the kind of person who feels insecure if an object has been moved from its rightful position etc., but it's just me. I wonder if your son is simply the same. (Although I would add that I had a very chaotic, insecure upbringing that must have had its effect on me). On a positive note my daughter has taught me a lot such as becoming tactile and more feminine and I think that is amazing. So, what I am trying to say is that hopefully this is just a phase that is a result of your son displaying his particularly unique developing personality. There may be a reason for his extreme behaviour there may not. Obviously he has to learn social skills but he is very young and I think I'd be most concerned if he his behaviour stops him from having friends or developing communication skills. If he was approaching school age with such extreme behaviour then I may be more worried. I am waffling a bit as I can understand your concern and therefore don't want to negate that but likewise I really do think he is probably, hopefully, simply pushing the boundaries of his personality simply because he can. (As many children do at different ages in different ways). Hope this helps.

Hi Scummy, I can understand your concerns and it must be worse to actually have someone to compare him to (even though everyone knows they shouldn't, who can help it sometimes? I do it all the time with my friend's daughter of the same age as dd) I haven't got anymore advice other than the msg I wrote for munchkinsugarpie below. I really did seem that my sister had something a bit 'wrong' but she is absolutely 'normal' (for want of two better words!) I suppose everything was fine on his 21 month check? If you are really concerned get your HV out to put your mind at rest. I know where you're going with the lack of eye contact, but then dd won't look at me for love nor money if she knows I'm trying to tell her something she doesn't want to acknowledge good or bad...
Take care X

If it's any consolation my son (aged 2) also gets overly upset about seemingly 'broken' things, or food that's spilt etc etc. And he won't let me do things like open/pour orange juice/ cereal etc unless he can 'do it' (i.e. I still keep a firm grip on the carton put let him think he's filled the cup/bowl. Same with lids(yoghurt/beakers etc). I've just put it down to emerging independence and the fact that we have created a fuss when some things get broken or spilt.
However one behaviour which is currently causing us some grief is that he now flatly refuses to go to bed without his slippers on. Since they are loose moccasin types they come off in bed and them he cries out for us (at 3 am last night - aaargh!) until we come and put them back on...
Am going shopping tomorrow for firmly fastening velcro ones!!

Hey- Some of my favourite Mumsnet posters have been the first to reply! Thanks guys.
Winnie- you're so right to remind me about what a unique person my son is. I do appreciate that what I see sometimes as eccentricities are part of who he is and make him into the person I love so much. Also I think you're spot on in mentioning self-imposed routine as a reaction to life feeling a bit chaotic. I've just started working part time and my childcare arrangements are variable- different members of our extended family look after the boys on different days and things are not as ordered as I'd like at all. They are starting at nursery on Monday and I hope this will be very positive for my son- he loves routine and I'm not a very ordered person. (He used to love his playgroup but I felt I had to remove both boys- I arrived to pick them up one day and found my other son lying on the (dirty, cold)lino floor having become unwell a hour after I left- no one had bothered to phone me, move him to a more comfortable position etc and, the staff blithely informed me, he'd been lying there for 2 hours. We did not return.) It sounds like the organised/disorganised polarity is reversed in our household, Winnie!
I think I need to work on my reactions to his behaviour as well as looking at whether he needs extra help (and I think the latter will become much clearer once he's settled in at nursery so I'll leave consulting GP & HV for a month or two, I think.) I can feel utterly infuriated with him far too easily- something about the grating effect of one's own child whining, I think- and that's my problem not his.

Scummymummy, my son is a very similar age to yours, about a month's difference. My ds too can have complete hysterics that I have opened something when he wanted to do it. His favourite is having two pots of yoghurts, which he then breaks apart and pulls the lids off. If I absently-mindedly snap them in half he won't have them and I have to get more out just so he can do it. We have tears over the directions in which we drive - if I go one way and he thinks we should be going another he will sit in the back of the car wailing, tears pouring down his face. He hates it if his banana breaks and other things like that.

My son likes order in his life, he's not very good with change and gets upset over loud noises and boisterous children. But saying that, he's a lot more confident in himself now than a few months ago and has completely surprised me with situations that I thought he would have troubling handling - such as pre-school. He has very good speech and his imagination is amazing.

Having no one to compare him to, I simply put his behave down to that of a normal pre-schooler and mainly ignore some of his more elaborate kick ups. I think he is just trying to become more independant - he wants to 'help' with so many things, or do things his own way at the moment I usually let him.

Perhaps you are more aware of your son's behaviour simply because it is so different from his twin. His 'oddness' doesn't sound odd to me at all!

Scummymummy, the mental image of you trying to repair a fried egg made me smile through a difficult morning. If it's any consolation I get frequent demands to mend 'broken' sandwiches (ie torn ones or if the crust falls off) and woe betide if I should cut the potato waffle in the wrong direction...
It certainly sounds to me as if you've got 2 cracking, lively, bright kids and as the others have said, the fact you've got 2 separate toddler personalities can raise questions in your mind which those of us with 1 just assume is normal (if somewhat eccentric) behaviour

Scummymummy - I recognised this thread when I saw it on the Talk board as I've posted on it before about my ds who also has had (and still has to an extent) strange obsessive behaviour. I'm come to realise he is a perfectionist, and I suppose he drews some security from having everything just so. I also get the major hysterics about broken food, how his toast is cut up, and now his latest thing is what clothes other people are wearing, he really doesn't miss a thing. In other respects, like your ds, he's basically a good and intelligent child. Your ds sounds perfectly normal to me, I'm sure his strange habits will become less obvious as he gets older, but atleast it shows he acknowledges order in his life which is no bad thing. As for not being very good at eye contact, don't worry too much about this, I've seen loads of kids who are exactly the same. Hope you're feeling a bit better about things now

scummymummy my son displays the same behaviour you describe and more, he has been doing this since he was young(he is now 6).He is due to be assessed by a physcologist next week as many of these behaviours are traits of aspergers which incidentally is on the same spectrum range as autism. I dont mean to freak you out but maybe his behaviour is really worth keeping an eye on and i would speak to your h.v too.My sons behaviour has been picked up on at nursery and now at school,many children with autistic spectrum disorders are undiagnosed for many years causing untold concern and upset for the family and the child concerned.At the moment my son is on the verge of being labelled a 'bad child' after only being at school 4 mths,this happened to my sister with her son who has adhd (undiagnosed till he was a teenager),so i would say keep a close eye on your little one and dont be slow in pushing for info on his 'different ways'.

Scummy (if I can call you that?), my dd (now nearly 5) was exactly the same at his age. If we took lids off yoghurt pots, cut things up "wrong" and all the things that you and others describe, there was hell to pay. It used to drive me mad! She's sooooo dramatic about everything, and I'm a very placid person (well less so nowadays!), so not only was it generally annoying, I also couldn't bear her "approach" to life (sounds a little silly for a 2 yr old, but I'm sure you know what I mean). She's much, much improved since then, and most of the time is fine. She still has her moments, but I've learnt to accept that this is her personality, and she's always going to deal with things differently to me - but that's her right as a person. So, what I'm trying to say is, don't worry too much, it sounds like most people have been through similar things, and it will pass.....don't know when, though!

Loobie - please don't think I'm being nosey, but what other problems has your son had? The reason I'm asking is that my sister has had lots of problems with her ds (aged 6 also) and he has managed to get himself labelled as a 'bad child'. We have both wondered about Aspergers too. Also, my ds still has strange obsessive habits, so it would be helpful to have something to compare this too. How did your son get referred to the psychologist, was it through the GP, school, or by yourself? Any comments greatly appreciated.

chanelno5 my son has been extremely quiet and very temperamental from an early age.He doesn't like changes,if we say we are doing something and we change it,(i.e we'll go swimming tomorrow then we get a surprise visit from gran and cant go)he just loses it he cries and whinges and goes on about nothing else for hours.He thinks very literally,it thats how he sees it then thats how it must be.He likes things to be the way he wants,he wants to eat from the same plate with the same fork and the same cup, if anyone else uses his things or we try to give him a different plate,cup,fork again he cant cope and will whinge and moan until it is put right.he likes to control situations,he will get ready for school,do his school work and follow commands when he feels like it this is his way of coping,if he chooses when to do these things then he knows what is happening and when its happening.He has strange likes and dislikes,he will play with a plug on the end of a wire instead of a room full of toys and he will do this while excluding everyone else who may try to communicate with him.He has poor eye contact and cant socialise like others his age.There are about seven kids in our street the same age as my ds and he chooses to play with the same one,has done since he was old enough to go out and play,in fact if all the other kids in the street are out and this particular kid isn't he will come in saying there is no one for him to play with.Aspergers children want to socialise and fit in but dont know how to make the link for example when all the kids were pokeman crazy my ds wanted pokeman cards to be the same as everyone else but never took the cards out with him,never joined in the games the other kids played with them.He is very tuned in to little things and is excellent at remembering details about these thingsi.e he knows all the cars by their badges and he knows how many wheel nuts are on each car in our street,he has difficulty seeing things from other peoples point of view and will talk over people who try to speak to him while he may be talking about something of particular interest to him like how many bolts are on our neighbours car wheel lol,this often makes him appear rude or offensive.He does not seem to care about making small talk or the consequences of what he does and doesn't do,at school they have a reward scheme called golden time whereby kids earn points which add up to free play time given on a friday,any unsavoury behaviour loses the kids a minute at a time of their 1/2 hour free time,my ds could lose all his free time through not cooperating with teaching staff and he wouldn't give a hoot.
i could go on and on with behaviours he exhibits that all just make him a naughty child but myself and everyone who has known him all his life know this is not the case,this is the problem because so many people dont know of aspergers.we have a special needs school beside where we live which has a developmental clinic attached to it and through my h.v and ds nursery teachers we got him referred there(this has been ongoing now for about a year as he had these problems at nursery too,in fact we kept him back from school a year as he was not coping with nursery rules etc)Th clinic consisted of a speech and language therapist,physiotherapist,a doctor,a paediatrician,a physchologist and an occupational health nurse all of whom assessed ds.after this first assessment a was suppose to get a full report but only got part of not everyone had put an input,,this assessment was done about a year ago and he is now going for reassessment on 24 jan to see if he has got any better but i am going to ask them about aspergers as ds fits all the criteria as far as i have read.Some people with aspergers and similiar disorders are not diagnosed and instead are labelled as a bad child or just simply different/strange so if any of these things ring a bell for your sister tell her to get onto her h.v for advice also you could try an internet search for autistic spectrum disorders. sorry i went on a bit, good luck and remember a lot of what ive said just sounds like a normal child being a bit of a brat but mothers instinct tells us there's something more,dont give up until your sure.

Scummymummy - can't really add more than everyone else about the behaviour thing - my daughter still insists on the crusts being cut off her sandwiches, apples must be peeled, she used to "arrange" the shopping at the checkout like a jigsaw puzzle etc. Recognise the yogurt pot stuff as well. All just sounds dead "normal".

But about the eye contact stuff has he had an sight test? My daughter was diagnosed has long sighted when she was about 3 1/2. Or a hearing test? I imagine you have done all this but it's just a thought.

channelno5 i have just read your posting "education-how to get hold of a physchologist" and from reading all about your nephew and tying it in to all i have read on autistic spectrum disorders it sounds more like your nephew may have adhd,his lack of sleeping etc are traits of this.i myself have two nephews who have adhd and one of whom has been expelled from various schools due to him being undiagnosed for a long time.Adhd,aspergers and autism are all closely linked,adhd is more behavioural problems whereas aspergers is more of a social problem but with most of these the children affected usually have above average intelligence as is my sons case and my nephews,he is a very clever boy but with some really over the top behaviour with no thought of the consequences of his actions.So again tell your sister to go to her h.v and get referred for help before her 'sons name is ruined'

Hi I can only second Emsiweill and Tinker. I remember that obsessive food rituals very familiar at this age, also things like toys in bed and put in the right order etc, though even now at 5 dd likes certain foods a certain way (one day crusts on and then another day crusts off grrrrrr snap howl) and is not overly chuffed if a biscuit is broken (more to do with is there any of it missing if you get my drift). But don't we all have food likes and dislikes (I like vinegar, dh can't stand it) and as adults we can express that and be accepted.

Scummy I just wanted to add my bit here. Tho' it may well be that your son is just pushing the boundaries you need to trust your instinct here. You are the best judge of whether behaviour seems 'normal' if a little eccentric, or whether it doesn't. My son (9) has dyspraxia and we always knew there was something a bit different about him. It wasn't really recognised until he started school (health visitors never picked it up). My advice would be not to worry, but to watch and wait - and note down things that concern you, because then you'll have a 'database' to go back to if you need to research these sorts of difficulties at a later date.

Loobie - it's interesting how much all these different syndromes have in common - my son has a friend with aspergers and although they're different personalities, they do have similar problems, primarily handwriting and difficulties concentrating. I've often wondered if all these syndromes are just different sides of the same coin. What do you think?