Oh I could cry....please help me be strong!!

[Mollythulu]

DS1 (8) has always had behavioural problems. Earlier on in the year it got so bad we though they might suspend him, which thankfully they didn't. DD(12)'s an angel, and so far, DS2(2.5)'s a typical toddler & DS3(0.7)'s an angel too. Tuesday - letter home to say he'd been in 'time out' 3 times this term, so could we discuss his behaviour. So we got the ex round and 'talked' to him - decided on some actions, one of which was saying that if he behaved for the rest of the week, he'd still be allowed to see HP7 at the weekend, for which we already have the tickets for.
So, today, 2 days after said rollicking, he threw a strop in the playground, because the other children wanted to stop playing the game. The ex wanted me to let him off because his report came back with all 'above expected levels', but DH and I think we need to stand our ground and not let him go. I'm so upset though, I was so looking forward to us going to see HP the four of us, especially as I have a scan next week which we're hoping is not going to show something serious. Are we really doing the right thing? Or are we being too harsh? School have already said they're putting him in the 'Haven' - basically a social supervised lunch club for 'billy no-mates', which I suggested on Weds, but they said it wasn't necessary.
Thing is, whenever DH and I punish him, DS doesn't react like he cares - ever. We once emptied his room of ALL toys, games, tv. etc. and said he had to earn them back. Didn't give a monkeys. Oooohhhh - what else can I do???? Are we doing the right thing? The only thing he seems to care about is seeing his dad and I can't take that away without the ex getting huffy!

I would rely on the school to punish him appropriately for the misdemeanours that take place there, whilst talking seriously to him about his behaviour. Ask him how he should have handled the situation differently - he's old enough to understand that. Don't take away treats that had already been promised but do reward him if a week goes by and he has consistently behaved well.

but the treats had been conditionally promised, on the grounds that he behaved himself, and then he didn't, fortyplus. so why should he then get the conditionally offered treat?

Or rather, he'd been warned that the treat would be witheld if he misbehaved, which I realise is not the same thing at all, was misremembering the situation and have just re-read for my own clarification. He still misbehaved.

Nothing seems to have worked previously - star charts, behaviour charts at school, daily reports between teacher and I, removal of games and tv privileges, removal of sweets at the weekend, extra chores. DH and I generally like to sit down with him and talk to him (rather than put the fear of God into him as ex-p does). We've talked about how one needs to think about other people's wishes, that a lot of the time, if someone doesn't want to play a game, they're not rejecting him, but rather the game. We've suggested he try to make other friends, and to take in a card game to play, as it generally happens when he and his friends have been playing an 'it' type game. He has used the Oasis in the past, but it only runs at lunchtime so it's not much good for breaktime. We've now suggested he takes a book in to read at break, but of course this isn't ideal because he really ought to be running around at play time.
I know he finds it hard not being one of the footie crowd, and I think that leaves him little choice for male friendship. However, I do know the other boys in the 'group' can be quite boisterous and have a slightly malicious side which I think they themselves are unaware of having - it's just what kids do sometimes, isn't it? Generally, it'll be a game of 'it' (which we've also suggested he avoid) that gets out of hand - someone will end up hurting him and he lashes back on an unreasonable level. I just can't think of another way to describe to him how wrong it is to descend into violence in the playground. The day before this all happened I congratulated him on having what I thought was a drama-free term, and he didn't say anything. And then we were all really disappointed to get the letter.
We just can't work out why he would kick off on Thursday morning when on Tuesday we'd talked about it and said if he was good for the rest of the week, then he would still be able to see HP. It feels like he's goaded us all into banning him from Potter, but we don't have the heart to do it - anyway, must go to sleep, I'm dropping off - will check in in the morning.

I wouldn't conditionally offer an 8 year old a treat that far in advance. poor parenting imo

well that's really helpful of you, fortyplus. have you got any uesful tips for Molly, or just more criticism?

ThumbsNoseAtSnapewitch - just read my first post

oh I did - you mean "I'm mum to two bpys aged 16 and 17 and from my distant perspective I can tell you that your punishments are excessive for an 8 year old."
Really helpful as well. You have an odd idea of what constitutes a useful post, if you think that is one.

Thanks Thumb - but surely, for an almost 9 year old, they can have the conceptualise more than a week? We're talking about from Tuesday to today, so all he had to concentrate on was three days behaviour, most of which I know are taken up with lovely end of term activities and lots of fun. To be honest, it sounds like you're just trying to defame my parenting skills for fun, which is not only childish but pointless, as I KNOW these aren't an issue here. The only person who used to make me feel insecure about my parenting was my own mother, who, thanks to the kind and helpful people on mn, no longer has the capacity to wind me up. Perhaps fortyplus, you were aware that I bought the tickets last week, and we didn't tell the kids until last Sat that they were going, and that his being able to go wasn't conditional until we received the letter about the time out's, whereupon we said he might be able to go if he could behave for the next three days. As it stands, I've now revoked that and changed the punishment, in agreement with his dad and stepdad, so are you saying that all three of us are poor parents? Please, do, as an elder mother of half the amount of children I have, tell me, exactly how do you stop an 8 yr old from excessively overreacting to things not going their way? Or do you think that perhaps I might be a bit like my son, and that it might be fun to see if I overreact to criticism and rejection? Wind me up and off I go? Please, read posts a little more carefully before you criticise. And I refer you to my previous answer to someone - if you want to judge, go to AIBU.

We are not trying to wind you up, you did wind some of us up with your comments though.

What I was trying to say is that you cant on one hand think that you need to see Camhs with your DS, but on the other treat him like a 'normal' child. You need to push for CAMHS.

You say the Head was a colleague. Are you a teacher?

I'm a cello teacher, but I worked at the school for three years as a Music TA, a SN one-to-one, the extended schools co-ordinator and a class TA after I split from the ex. I left to have DS3, and have subsequently married DH and had DS4. Jealousy and attention are not really an issue for Elf, as he gets plenty here and at his dad's. He loves DS3 & 4 to bits, and they all get on really well.
As I said before, I'd be more willing to push for CAMHS if he was also having social problems outside of school but he gets on well with all age children and adults. He did have a bullying problem back in infant school, but we thought new school, new class, would remove him from hanging out with this set of boys who were renowned for being on the difficult side. But he seems to be staying friends with three boys from his old class who I think might be quite immature themselves. That's the impression I get anyway. But whether it's an impulse control thing, surely he has to learn that some behaviours like hitting, kicking, punching and swearing are just not acceptable? I've dealt with SN/kids with behavioural difficulties and had to remove them from classrooms, talk them down from outbursts, bring back runaways to the classroom etc, myself, on several occasions, so I do have a fair bit of understanding of fight/flight impulses and things, but we just can't get our head around this one. I trust the school implicitly, but if they ask for us to support them by talking to him about his behaviour, we need to do it in a way that will be effective and will work. Talking the hind legs off him doesn't seem to have worked at all, as we have done this time and again. Of course boys are more likely to get into playground altercations, but in a school as large as his, when you know that less than 10% of the entire school is ever in time out at one time, you know that three time outs in six weeks is a warning sign that something's going on. He won't or can't make more friends within the class, so he has to learn to control himself quick or it is going to mean more exclusions and more psych evaluations, which I just don't think is really necessary, especially not when the head thinks it's just an emotional immaturity problem as well.

Mollythulu to be honest the beauty of an internet forum is that you get comments from people who know nothing about you other than what's on the page in black and white. I've found this myself - sometimes I've asked for advice and felt rather indignant at some of the blunt breplies.

So I'll say one more thing, which is that your long replies defending yourself do indicate to me that you are probably expecting your son to rationalise and reflect upon his behaviour in a way that isn't appropriate for an 8 year old.

You have the best possible motives and I agree that your son's behaviour must be unacceptable if the school is punishing him in the way that you've indicated.

You've asked for advice - I've given it both as the mother of two older boys and as a primary school governor who has sat on the school's exclusions appeal panel.

In my opinion - and that's all it is - it's poor parenting to set up a situation such as you descrobe here: 'We just can't work out why he would kick off on Thursday morning when on Tuesday we'd talked about it and said if he was good for the rest of the week, then he would still be able to see HP.' That doesn't make you a poor parent - far from it. I'm merely saying that this one aspect of your parenting - in my opinion and based on my experiences is poor.

You've asked for advice - did you really want it?

Ok so you've given me your opinion - and obvious disapproval. However you've not actually said how we should have tackled the situation. Are we, as parents, not supposed to support the school disciplinary procedures? Are we just supposed to allow he school to chastise the children on their own, for I though one of the main criticisms of parents was that they let the school do the parenting for them. I'm completely confused now and still haven't had any alternative suggestions.

fortyplus - you have not given any advice. you have not given any constructive criticism, just criticism. You are not helping the OP, just judging her.

Do you have any constructive advice for her, that she can actually use?

Not read the whole thread, but ohhh a lot of people upsetting someone who is about to cry...!
Anyway, as a teacher who has put children on report and brought parents in after 3 times:
Id ask for him to be put on report. If the challenging behaviour is just at break/lunch times start with the report for just these times. Get him to choose his own reward for achieving good results (work through some examples with him).
You'll need a discussion with him about why the expectations for behaviour are different from those of his dad (if youve not already done this).
For this current situation with the film, Id take him but use this experience to think how youre going to do it differently next time so that the rewards/punishments/criteria etc is all thought of and communicated about in advance.
Good Luck

And never, never underestimate the importance of football on the school yard

Thanks cottonreels -that's a good idea. I think what I'll probably do is send his yr 4 teacher and seance (also ex-colleagues & friends) an email in sept just to ask that if it happens once, perhaps they could put him on a behaviour report for playtimes again. I think this might just highlight if the problem truly lies with him overreacting or if the others are winding him up. Feel much better now, like I have a plan!

Hi op? Forgive me if these questions have already been answered. Has he always been like this at school or just over the last year? And.... Does he behave the same way at home with your other dcs? My ds (6),so a bit younger, had some issues at school this last year. I was incredibly frustrated as I knew he knew the correct way to behave. I'd practically make him say out loud all the things he should and shouldn't do in the morning before he went in and its like he forgot by the time he got there. He was rarely misbehaved at home and never at other friends houses or parties. The problem seemed to be at school so I suggested some sort of report where the day was split up into 7 periods. So as each period ends he is given a happy or sad face to show how when his behaviour is at it's best and worse. I'm not sure why but having to focus on behaving for a shorter period of time worked really well for him. If he got more than 5 happys in a day he got a star and more than 3 stars in a week he was rewarded with a magazine or small toy at the end. What are the school doing to reward his GOOD behaviour? You mention there were 4 incidences , there are more than 4 days In the term has he been praised for his behaviour on those days.? The one thing I refused to do was punish him at home for something that the school had already punished him for. He seemed to just think he was going to get in trouble anyway, the more he was punished the worse his behaviour would get. I think it's all about support. I made sure that the school knew I would support my ds no matter what and if they were concerned enough to express opinions about his behaviour they should also be concerned enough to HELP and SUPPORT him to improve it. I know the whole idea of a smiley/sad face might be a bit babyish for a nearly 9 year old but it worked for us. (ds was off it within 3 months getting 6/7 happys a day) and now we have no problems! It just seems like he got into good habits from focusing on the day as small periods rather than one long day of trouble. Also op is there anything at home that might be making him react in a certain way? My ds problems were brought on by dd being born sick. We spend the best part of the year in and out of hospital. He couldn't articulate how he felt. Do you do anything just the 2 of you? Without other dcs present? The main thing I could do for my ds was not get stressed I'm sure that when the school first started calling me my reaction towards his behaviour at first actually made it worse. I hope that's been a bit helpful. Apologies for lack of paragraphs, I've not quite learned how to use them on an IPhone

Ok - perhaps I'm making assumptions about how what I said was interpreted. So to repeat: I would rely on the school to punish him appropriately for the misdemeanours that take place there, whilst talking seriously to him about his behaviour. Ask him how he should have handled the situation differently - he's old enough to understand that. Don't take away treats that had already been promised but do reward him if a week goes by and he has consistently behaved well.

In other words talk to him about his behaviour. Allow the school to punish as appropriate for behaviour that occurs there. Make it clear to him and the school that you are supportive of this. Sit down with his teacher to discuss positive and negative behaviour (do make sure that there are some positives and praise him for these).

I would never offer a 'long term' reward for good behaviour - such as saying he can do so-and -so if he behaves for the rest of the week. Speak briefly with his teacher at the end of the school day - every day if that's possible. Give small treats for consistent good behaviour - a nice surprise if you like.

I'm leaving this thread now but good luck

i have just skimmed some of this thread, sorry. I have one son who is very hard work sometimes, although with him it is at home rather than school, really awful behaviour, from age of 2 to now 12, although he is much better now! I recognise the "not caring" aspect to punishment and the feeling of what else can we do to get him to behave?I think especially as they get older they do realise they can push your buttons and the sight of you ranting on(this is me I am describing, not you OP!) threatening stuff is weirdly satisfying to them!I do find what works best is immediate punishment- so I will turn off TV, take away ipod,stop TV/screens for that day, no sweets, no playing out with friends that day. and also, just lots of attention, just chatting and hugging, works really well. I have found with my son that if I make anything dependant on good behaviour. eg treats, playing sport etc, it does not work. My son is very clever too and I think he can easily work out which threats are not likely to be carried out. Bit of a ramble, but I do feel for you and I am sure you are doing your best, it certainly sounds like it.

I'd think at 9 he'd be able to connect a three day delayed treat with the consequences of behaving or not so would think that was reasonable... however... I'd find the way you described ur chilren in opening post to suggest that u regard him as the troublesome one in the family - obv my perception may be copmletely wrong but if not maybe he's feeling that too which mightn't help behaviour.

I'd wonder too about the "violence" in the playground at school... was this actually serious or was it pushing and shoving which mightn't be as bas as "violence" sounds... I'd expect 9 yr old boys to be pushing and shoving a bit and mostly it would not be serious...

anyway good luck!

just to wade in - personally i think you did the right thing. Why? Because you all agreed it was the right thing. The problem with these kind of sites is that you open up your private situation to lots of people who dont live in your shoes. And while all of their suggestions may be right, they may not be right for you. It sounds like your a very involved parent and all you need is a bit of faith in yourself. Dont forget your the adult and you make the decisions. Life isnt full of treats and stars and if we as adults misbehave by society's rules we get punnished (mind you with the way the courts hand out suspended senteces one would argue not). As for the pot social problems - honestly, not every child who misbehaves has a social problem. If the head thinks nothing is seriously wrong and you as a parent dont think so either then it probably isnt. He is only a child and needs time to learn how to behave as well as adults expect. If it was my son, i would have stuck to the no HP - no compromise. But you made a different decision and its right for you so dont worry. (and i hope if was a good film as i'm off to see it soon!)

Yeah, 'twas brilliant - he did come with us in the end, but understands that he'll be coming here instead of playing with his cousins this week. Thanks for all your comments, he seems to be ok at the moment - I've not had any more emails from the SENCO, so I'm assuming everything's ok at school.