Will someone PLEASE help with these tantrums

[Ivortheengine8]

Please help!

I have a 20 month old DD and I am 6 months pregnant.
I have almost given up trying to go shopping,go to anyone elses house or go into a coffee shop to have a drink.

An example I shall give!

We go into Asda, I put her in the trolley. (I tend to shop every day to get me out of the house and because I don't have access to a car and ASDA is just opposite)
5 minutes in, she starts yelling, I ignore it for a little. She wants to go in the back of the trolley. I put her in but tell her she must sit down, she sits down. I turn my back and she is up, playing with the shopping and ripping packets open, putting things in the trolley I don't want. I tell her she is going back in the seat at the front. I struggle for about 5 minutes, getting red in the face and flustered. She kicks and struggles and I physically cannot get her into the seat. I give up and leave her to sit in the back, she looks up at me and starts grinning. She knows she has won, I feel like an idiot and make a dash out of the shop. (with her!)

Other times she wants something and I tell her no, I do what I feel I should be doing and I don't back down. She will start yelling and rolling around on the floor (shops,cafes etc)

Please can anyone give me any advice. I do things with her and make sure she is occupied as much as I can and she is usually ok at home or if we are outside walking.

She doesn't seem to play up much with my husband (but obviously he is not at home with her all day like I am) She won't let me clean her teeth but she lets him clean them...He thinks I am letting her walk over me but what else can I do?

:(

I think I want some reassurance/to know
Is it normal?
Will they ever go away?
How long will this stage last?
Should I ignore it?
What am I doing wrong?

Hi Ivor, you sound like you need a hug so have one from me and sod the MN anti-hug brigade! I'm going through a similar experience with my 19 month old DS at the moment. Everything is a HUGE battle and although I try to get him out of the house every day it's getting to the point where I dread it because I'm just waiting for him to cause a scene in public.

The only advice I can give is that yes, it is normal and yes, it will go away (I hope!) Try to stick to your guns with her, so she will eventually realise you mean what you say and that using a tantrum as a weapon against you won't work. I don't think you're doing anything wrong but I do think you need a break. Is there someone that can take her out for a bit in the afternoon so you can rest?

I'm trying to console myself with the thought that it will pass, as did the not sleeping through the night, the not being able to roll over, the frustration at not being able to crawl, the teething....Oh god the teething. Got 2 hrs sleep last night :-(

Obviously you need to stop putting her in the back of the trolley as in the seat she at least can't attack your shopping. She is probably bored.

Can you distract her? Do you play any games while shopping? With mine I used to give him food, like a tub of chopped grapes. Now he likes playing with my keys (which he needs to 'steal' from my pocket), or his favourite toy (which sometimes then needs picking up off the floor). Or the shopping list. If he is really whining, sometimes I push the trolley away down an empty aisle then run down after it in 'panic' that it got away. That normally cheers him up.

Thanks Ralph, yes just what I needed! :) nice to know I'm not alone.
Noble, yes I try and involve her as much as possible and give her non breakables to put in the trolley and on at the till. If there is an empty aisle we go down it racing etc.....but obviously I still have to get the shopping done and do other things. It happens when she can't have something she wants to and I can't give in to it everytime she wants something to prevent her from it. The thing is that if she doesnt want to go in the seat she will not let me and will kick,scream...etc - this is even before we get into the shop where the trolleys are. :(

I do do the big shops online now and I think I might just start doing the whole lot online but then there are times when it happens in different public places.

My dd had the most explosive tantrums and I can say they do eventually go!!!
However do not go to asda every day it obviously is not turning into a nice little outing for either of you! Do a weekly shop pref without your dd!!!

Try and find lots of toddler groups, singing and signing groups etc to go to - pref one for each day of the wk (just one thing on any given day)

Have a routine whereby you get a break when she sleeps in the day.

Be consistant with not giving into tantrums.

One of the issues my dd had was with communication and I found once this improved so did her behaviour!!!

Girly yes, I do want to get to more toddler groups, We go to one on a FRiday which tires her out but yes, we do need to do it more.
She still naps at mid day but I am also tired by then we both sleep at the same time! (I hope she continues this!)
I have heard that it is alot to do with communication and it must be really frustrating for them but I will try and not give in.

..................and now I will have to go through it all again in a year or so !

yeah good luck with that

She's bored, and fighting her over it doesn't help. When she has a fit in the trolley she at least gets your attention. I'd say try and be a bit more child-led, and I definitely wouldn't go to Asda every day! Can't you get the shopping delivered?

The book 'Happiest Toddler On The Block' talks about warding off tantrums and stopping them quickly.

If you think she is frustrated that she can't communicate her desires, you acknowledge what she wants to do, tell her that you know what she wants, agree that it's frustrating that it can't happen and then try to distract.

So something like 'I know, DD wants to get in the back of the trolley, I know. You're stuck in the seat. Stuck! But you can't get in the back, we need to get the shopping done, and that's sad'. Then if she seems to engage with what you're saying 'but once we've finished shopping we can go to the park! Then babble a bit about the park then 'oh look, mummy's keys, don't they jingle'

Obviously the book explains it a bit better.

Hi, sounds to me that you need to start empathy training ASAP. A child that has been affectively empathy trained will want to please you and will want to behave because they will not want to hurt your feelings.
Best to start at home ? when your daughter does something that is wrong/naughty, over act your reaction and pretend to cry ? put her down and ignore her. Get her dad to do the same. I know it may sound weird but it will start to teach her how her actions affect you and others. Don?t tell her she is being horrid tell her that she has hurt your feelings and have made you very sad (you can pretend to cry). I first saw this practice on TV and saw the dramatic effect is can have. I used it on my daughter from 13 months (I am not trying to sound like a show off) and have only ever had one tantrum in a supermarket. Before we go anywhere I tell her where we are going and how I expect her to behave ? she is now 6 and other parents and people have commented on how well behaved she is ? does make me proud.

I haven't used empathy training and my daughter has never had a tantrum in a supermarket.

Years ago my friend had the same problem with her toddler son but when I was looking after him for her and took him shopping with me each week he was fine and I never had a problem with him. I think it depends on how you prepare the child for the trip, i.e. explain where you are going even if you think they cannot understand. Once there talk to them as you go along - pointing things out and make up games and involve them. Its much easier and quicker than dealing with screaming and tantrums.

Crikey, I've never heard of empathy training before. Doesn't it sound a bit, erm, passive aggressive? I don't know if pretending to cry in response to your child's behaviour isn't a bit of a burden for them (I think I'd have found it a bit traumatic as a child, TBH).

I'm with noblegiraffe on the Harvey Karp approach. His tips for avoiding tantrums really do seem to help, and when one does happen his advice is to empathise with the child, not the other way round (e.g. "I know your upset because you can't have a sweet, but I just don't have any money with me"). He reckons that a big frustration for them is the feeling that they're not being heard, so your response should be to tick that box first before teaching them right from wrong. It's not too wishy washy liberal parenting, you still tell your child what is and isn't acceptable behaviour, but it's done in a very loving, firm way.

BTW - don't despair too much. I'm sure intelligent children are more likely to tantrum as they're bright enough to challenge

Yep i sympathise, tantrums are a nightmare and are embarrassing. The only way i have found of dealing with them is to predict them and then avoid them. Or if they do happen, distract and stay calm (leave them on the floor - no point trying to pick them up if its going to stress you out).

I have to agree with Octaviapink, if you know that your toddler is likely to have tantrums when doing things that they don't enjoy you can avoid tantrums by limiting the number of things you do that they won't enjoy. Going to the shop every day would be a complete nightmare for me as my 21 month old DS would go insane. I go to the supermarket maybe once a fortnight (mostly get stuff delivered). My DS gets bored quite quickly so i always make sure i bring him a drink and some biscuits so he has something to do while i shop - and I never go when he's tired. He will probably still kick off, but he won't do it in the first 5 mins of being in the shop, so hopefully i will have done most of the shopping by the time he gets bored. Yesterday he kicked off at the checkout and as noblegiraffe suggested out came the keys. They worked a treat - oooh keys, jingle jingle.
If you want to get out of the house maybe go to a soft play area or the park.
Debivamp I'd never heard of empathy training, so I am coming from an uninformed standpoint but is it not effectively lieing to your child about the impact of their actions? Isn't that just storing up trouble for later? Surely you can say to a child "that is upsetting to me" without pretending to cry.

First of all, can I just say it was a question of time before another mumsneter would come and say that their child has never had a tantrum in a supermarket. It's not helpful and don't let it make you feel bad.

Maybe you shouldn;t take her to the shop that often. Go to a park, kick a ball, do something outdoors, but supermarkets are very boring places for kids and most parents would admit that their child has kicked a fuss in a supermarket at one point(except octaviapink's children). Explain to her first that it is a very special shop and you need to get ten things. Let her count the things, choose something for herself, but set some boundaries first - she goes in the seat and stays in the seat.

I also always bring a snack and drink for supermarket shop. I try to do it as quickly as possible. I think you just have to accept that something triggers that reaction in your daughter and you might have to think of a plan to avoid the issue (go less often) and distract (games, talk to her, let her choose some of the food), praise good behaviour. If you see that she is kicking off, distract her immediatly take her mind off whatever she is kicking off about.

With a 20 months old, you have to pick your battles.

Agree with all the posters that suggest not going to the shops as much - it is much too stressful with a 'lively' toddler.

I do my big shop on a sunday morning on my own for peace and quiet and only take DD to the shop every now and then in a more educational - 'let's run some errands way' eg posting a letter or letting her push the baby trolleys around if we only have a few things to get.

You will find that as she gets a bit older in the next few months she will like help more, putting things in the trolley and on the till, but I would still limit it to to short trips.

Parks, libraries, toddler groups are your friend at this age, find one now that you can take her too when the baby comes.

Also take no notice of posters who claim their children don't have tantrums, they probably just have an 'easier' child I doubt it is anything special they did... Empathy training blah blah blah.

My SIL did something that sounds very much like empathy training. Her eldest still had spectacular tantrums for several years, whilst her younger two (brought up in the same way) never had them at all. Just temperament as far as I can see.

I have a large and very close -knit extended family so have had the opportunity to observe a good many children over the years. I'd say the proportion of tantrummers v. non- tantrummers in my family is roughly 1: 4. On the whole, the tantrummers have been the brightest ones, with the exception of my little brother who was a sunny youngster but has grown into a big serious professor (how did that happen )

I also think the fact that a toddler doesn't have tantrums when he's with someone who's not his mum is a total red herring. Even the most formidable tantrummers of my (large) extended family have kept their tantrums in the family.

If you go to Asda every day, it must be just a little shop so why the trolley? If the trolley is the problem lose it. Let her walk and help you a bit - give her a mission, where's the milk? Can you carry this bread? Lots of praise etc.

Is she tired when she tantrums? My DD2 is 22 months and still has a nap from about 1 - 3 and really needs it. If she threw a tantrum I'd assume she was overtired and pick her up firmly for her own safety and to get her to sleep.

I have witnessed my 5 year old niece having a major tantrum in the street - she only tantrums with her Mum. My sister couldn't get her to calm down and there was traffic so I had to physically carry her through the centre of town over my shoulder with the softly spoken words that when she'd calmed down she could apologise and I'd let her go, I repeated this a few times as I continued to walk. It took her less than 2 minutes to calm down on my shoulder after a screaming fit that lasted over 15 minutes before.

It helps to react in a bemused way when faced with a tantrum. Let's face it, a tantrumming child is a bit ridiculous, I don't think I'm cruel to find tantrums a bit funny. When DD1 (4) has a bit of a dramatic moment I find humour the best answer, she is eventually able to laugh at herself when I point out how going crazy isn't going to help or by mimicking her.

Just for info - empathy training was shown on the BBC documentary ?A child of our time? - Sir Robert Winston was a supporter - it really turned one of the problem children around - it was as if the boy had had a personality transplant. the one time my DD had a taantrum in a supermarket I left immidiately and marched her home, took her fav toy away and made it perfectly clear that that behaviour was NOT acceptable. I will not stand for poor behaviour in public - it is just manners.

Well, devi, I hate to tell you this, but there are children who have such complete tantrums that they wouldn't even notice if somebody is pretending to cry or confiscating all their toys; they are simply uncontactable. My dd used to get so she didn't even recognise the people around her. A child who can be marched home probably isn't having a tantrum in the sense that I would call a tantrum; that sounds like a minor strop.

My brother was the same; he could tantrum for hours (literally) until he had worn himself out. He once kicked his way through a wooden door with his bare feet. Perhaps that was bad manners. But pointing that out hardly made any difference to him; if you are so worked up that you don't care about kicking your toes to bits you probably don't care about any legal punishment dished out by an adult either. With him, you would know hours in advance when a tantrum was coming because he was so tensed up and obviously looking for trouble.

They have both grown up into calm, controlled, well mannered people, so I don't think it was a question of something seriously wrong either with them or with the parenting they had; it was a phase they needed to get through. Even during the tantrumming phase, they were both well behaved and compliant when not in tantrumming mood, and the frequent receivers of compliments for their good manners. And as both my mother and I also had non-tantrumming children, I don't think it's anything we particularly called out in our children.

My point is, children are different: don't judge somebody else's parenting from what's worked for you.

f I had only had the experience of ds, I would probably have thought you an incompetent parent because your dd had a tantrum in a supermarket once: my ds never did that so obviously my methods worked better than yours

I didn't mean to come across as SmugParent - I just really didn't like the sound of the 'empathy training'. DD hasn't ever had a tantrum in a supermarket but that's probably partly because we rarely ever go! And if we do it's to pick up one or two things on the way to the playground.

Didn't take your post as smug parent, Octavia; it read as if you meant it's not all about what methods you use.

My first 2 children didn't mind the supermarket. I made it as interesting as I could they would sit there beautifully and I was stupid enough to wonder why everyone else couldn't manage 1 child. hahah silly me. Number 3 hated supermarkets from about 18-20 months and would be very loud and difficult. He's now just over 2 and he's back to tolerating them belongs he can help and I don't spend too long in there. He now also gets "once we've paid for it" but that's more recent. My tips would be stay clear from there as much as possible. Be firm when you do go in so child knows the boundaries. Only do it when you are feeling good enough to do it. A tired mummy and a tired child is not a good time.

It will pass. When speech and understanding comes it will be easier.

Just so you don't feel alone. My DS threw a right one about 4 weeks ago. It was at a point where I even had people asking me if I wanted help. Stupid me thought I could manage without a trolley because I needed just 3 items!!! Always take a trolley or pushchair for back up especially if pregnant. If all else fails at least you know you have a place where they are safe.

My DS has days (but very few now but a few months ago it felt likes weeks) where he would cry if I tried anything. I just keep plugging away at as many things as I can do but obviously have to pick my battles with 2 other children to care for.... For example I can't force him to brush his teeth but do offer lots of smiles if he does do it... He's getting better. Time....

Good luck and hugs. P.s a lot can change in three months by the way x

Big hug to you, OP - you are not alone! My DS is 19 months so we still have a a long way to go on the tantrum front as his ambitions for independence grow every day.

Just like you, my DS often behaves better for my DH. So where ever possible on weekends or holidays I get my DH to help tackle problem areas by helping my DS to form new habits and behaviours.

**New habits are formed very quickly in toddlers --- as you will know after having put your DD in the back of the trolley just once!

I give an example: A flashpoint for me and my DS was the car seat where he had a MASSIVE tantrum with me EVERY TIME but not with my DH. So my DH and I agreed that DH would do every car seat entry over the bank holiday weekend. Now comes the tuesday - no tantrum for mummy -- it was like DS forgot he was "supposed" to have a tantrum for me!!

I built on this good behaviour, as others have suggested, by managing his expectations about the car seat -- 5 mins before we leave I say " are you ready to get in the car? We're leaving in 5 min. We're going to play with X/go shopping. You can have your dummy in the car (or you can take X toy with you to the car)" I repeat as I strap him in to the car.

This approach has work for me with several flash points including the high chair and nappy changing. Obviously we still have tantrums but when ever I have a big area of repetitive tantrum that needs a new approach to break it, I get DH on the case to help kick off new behavioural habits and take the pressure off whatever has become a battle of wills for me.

I don't know what your DH does for a living and whether he can be there with you for several days in a row (a weekend) but this approach can work with any loyal friend or in law who is willing to help out.

Sorry this is so long!!!!!! Hope it helps!

Agree with constant chattering about what you're doing, where you're going, why, what it leads to and the fun it will be - it's a great distraction from the thing you're actually doing e.g. shopping/car seat etc that causes the tantrum.