Almost 3yo rough to the point of dangerous with baby- what can I do???

[EffieB]

DS (3 in august) is appallingly rough with 7 month baby. Is generally quite a rough and tumble child, so initially I put it down to that and tried not to overeact, thinking it'd get better with time. But have realised he knows exactly how to interact with cats/ dogs we meet (gently) so it isn't just overenthusiasm.

'Strokes' turn in to pinches, 'pats' turn in to a hit etc.. etc.. today he was playing with toys and baby was minding their own business other side of room (not getting masses of attention I don't think) and before I could blink an eye what seemed like an innocent enough interaction turned into a pinch (whole handful his hand pinching as much baby as could get in it), scratched their face and roughly pushed them over (was trying to kick them but got in and grabbed leg). If baby is lying down will whizz over and kneel on arm, or try and ram a vehicle into baby's head.

I've tried not overreacting, praising good behaviour, being tough on bad behaviour.

I think DP and I are wusses when it comes to disciplining, I'm starting to think this kind of behaviour should be treated REALLY seriously. DP thinks it is 'normal' that baby will get some bashes, but this is over and above 'normal' baby bashing by older sibling, isn't it?? I never leave them together- baby and DS- but DP does, and I'm starting to get sick with worry about baby getting seriously hurt.

What can I do make some inroads in to this??? It's really affecting how I feel about DS.

I asked because a friend is having similar problems with her DD and she spends 4 days a week in nursery (when the mum is at home with the baby). I can't help but wonder if a major part of the problem is that her DD feels pushed out and is sruggling to cope with her feelings. I daren't suggest this to her though because she finds her dd so difficult that the thought of having her around more of the time would tip her over the edge!

It's sad that your 7 month old baby stays near to you to be safe. Would you show this thread to your DP so that he reads the advice of all these experienced moms? Show the 3 year old you trust him? Ha!

I think it's completely the wrong approach to give huge amounts of attention to the baby - all this "oh poor baby - he's hurt" stuff is just going to make the older one even more jealous.

Of course the older one mustn't hurt the baby - but a matter of fact "Don't do that - it's not kind" then putting the baby in a playpen or somewhere then heaping attention on the older on is much more likely to have the desired effect. It's noit the same as a child being too rough with a contemporary - it really isn't.

I understand where you are coming from Seeker, but it was the only approach that worked for us. But I shoudl emphasise that the key was in heaping attention on older DS when he was not hurting baby.

If you simply heap more attntion on the baby then it could be destructive.

In this way, he made the link that when he hurt the baby, the attention was taken away from him.

It also worked very quickly, but DS1 was almost 3 so that may have made a difference too in terms of comprehension.

And certainly taking the approach that someone else mentioned further up that you understand that the baby can be annoying/inconvenient (e.g. "let's get DS2 nappy changed quickly - you can help so it's quicker! - so that he can settle down and we can get back to drawing")

harecare your suggestions aren't very practical are they? I am at home full time with DS2&3 and go to toddler groups several times a week and we walk to and from school twice a day often via the park. It's not about running off steam, in fact, tiredness can be a cause in my case. I can't spend the whole time out of the house with meals to prepare and things to be done.

effieb I'm absolutely with you on the lightening speed at which these things happen. Also, because my DS2 isn't consistently aggressive with DS3 it's hard to know when he'll strike. Sometimes he can just be walking past and swipe him on the head for no reason, other times he leaves him alone. And while I want to protect the baby, I also want DS2 to have a relationship with his younger brother which doesn't involve being told off constantly for going near him. I'm finding that I say the words 'Gently!' or 'Careful!' when DS2 hasn't done anything

I try and get the two of them to have a play together, with me sat with them so that DS2 can see something fun about the baby. Building towers of bricks so the baby can knock them down works (if they're soft fabric ones!!), or getting DS2 to do peepo. Something simple.

Sorry - I wasn't directingmy comment at anyone in particular - it's just that the withdrawing attention approach would have sent my dd off to barbecue the guinea pig or something.

What worked for us was a mixture of the "Oh lord this baby's boring" and so much attention that she was practically begging to be left alone to watch the tweenies on her own!

And everything changed once the baby can interact properly. My ds was such a devious baby that he directed all his charm at his big sister until she was a heap of worshipping putty in his hands - he laughed for the first time at her and was a constant audience, walked for the first time to her, said her name first....and she is still his willing slave 9 years later!

So there is light at the end of the tunnel

libbyssister I think tiredness is an issue too, DS is half dropping nap at minute and last few hrs of the day when he hasn't had a nap are always a struggle in other ways too. We're the same as you also, DS will pass baby in the highchair to get to table 8 times no problem, and then on the 9th will poke them out of the blue.

I think various people's suggestions about saying 'oh what a boring baby' etc.. is a good idea, DS at min generally just experiences me with baby clutched to chest saying 'how could you be so horrible to baby DS?'. Also lots of attention for DS when baby doing something else/ asleep- I've not been doing this as much as before thinking about it, I've not enjoyed DS's company recently, I'll make an effort to do this.

Thinking about it, from DS's point of view baby has been constantly in my arms, must be bewildering/ frustrating.

harecare I see you have DD's while libbysister and I have a DS. Increasingly in my experience there is a velocity akin to tornado created by a certain type of boy, in both good and bad ways! I wonder if that's part of why we're seeing it a bit differently.

Libbysister - great that they're running off steam, now just do the tea/washing etc when baby asleep, in swing, in bouncer in sight of you. Keep the baby close and tornados can't strike them.
EffieB - I'm a childminder and have cared for tornado boys and girls. All are worse when tired. Speak to your CM and ask for good strategies. Or, you could do as your DP suggests and continue to allow DS1 to hurt the baby as "that is what boys do"

harecare with the greatest respect I've neither said nor think that boys somehow 'naturally' hurt babies, nor do I think this is acceptable.

Hm. I'm afraid I don't agree with this idea of calling the baby boring. Surely you're reinforcing the idea that there is nothing positive about the baby at the moment?

We went through similar when my DS was born - his big sister was just turned 2. Like you I couldn't help but respond with upset and outrage 'how could you be so horrible?!?' etc etc. I think she enjoyed the big reaction. I only managed to turn the situation around by being (outwardly) calm and deadpan. I was incredibly vigilant and whipped the baby away the minute she looked like she was going to hurt him without saying anything to her except a very calm 'no, don't hit'. I heaped praise and attention on her the minute she did anything nice and gentle with him - and gave her opportunity to do so. When things were calm I'd encourage her to stroke his hand or pass him a toy. Over time she learnt she got shed loads of attention when she was kind and none when she wasn't. I also gave them opportunity to interact - got her to play peepo with him or roll a ball towards him, sing him a song or something. Then went overboard telling her how much he LOVED playing with her and thought she was so clever and the best big sister in the world etc etc. I showed her that interacting with him nicely could be fun and worth her while.

And, yep, absolutely made sure we did lots of things together. Crucially, not just when the baby was asleep though as I didn't want her to think she could only get my attention when he was sleeping. I would set DS up with some toys/treasure basket or whatever and sit at the table (where DS couldn't trash stuff) and do some drawing/gluing/play doh or whatever. If DS started howling for my attention he'd just have to wait for 5 minutes. This way she learnt that she came equal first with him and sometimes he had to wait for my attention just like she did.

hare care you must have missed my post where I said my DS3 is 10 months and crawling. He wants to be off discovering and exploring not strapped to me while I peel potatoes. And I want all my sons to interact with each other, not be separated. As a CM you can't afford for one child to be aggressive to another in your care. You would have to separate them. But we are a family and spend all day every day which each other and I have to find a way to manage my son's behaviour within the family situation. EffieB might well find that her DS behaves completely differently with other unrelated children. I know DS2 does.

Right, seeing as all my DSs are in bed, I'm off to do all those household chores....

seeker 'Of course the older one mustn't hurt the baby - but a matter of fact "Don't do that - it's not kind" then putting the baby in a playpen or somewhere then heaping attention on the older on is much more likely to have the desired effect. It's noit the same as a child being too rough with a contemporary - it really isn't.'

• Wouldn't this just suggest that being mean to the baby is a great way to get lots of attention, though??? Surely you're rewarding an undesired behaviour?

I think 'boring baby' approach is not about encouraging rivalry or being complicit in DS1 feeling superior, but about acknowledging that young babies, whilst precious and delightful, have a fairly limited routine and repertoire which is boring when you are 2 or 3

DS1 was looking through his baby book today and it reminded me that I had put all of his baby photos and footage onto a DVD (to some cheesy music!) around the time DS2 was being generally savaged by his older brother.

It helped me to reconnect with DS1 and he loved watching it and seeing everybody dote on him the way he could see it was happening with DS2.

The other thing I caught myself doing today (and thought of this thread!) was praising DS1 for something and saying how he was doing such a good job of showing his little brother about (in this case, good manners) but could be whatever. I did this a lot when I was praising DS1 for positive stuff when DS2 was just a baby, but he responded very well to it.

I have a 3yr old ds and 8mnth dd so can understand a bit what you're going through. Generally ds is kind and caring to dd but sometimes, especially when tired or over excited he gets a bit rough with her. Generally I can see when things are starting to build up (she's broken his train track for the 5th time!) and try to step in and say 'no dd, dont break the train track, come and sit over here and ds will choose you a train you can play with'. He then gives her a few carriages and I sit in between them for a bit until it calms down. When he has done something malicious, once he pinched her hard on the face, I tell him it's not kind and move him to sit outside the room. I then sit and play with dd and make a big fuss of her. I think that for a 3rd old things need to be very black and white-when he's good,lots of attention and praise, when he's not he is in time out. Goodluck with things, I'm hoping it gets easier when they can play a bit together

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• Wouldn't this just suggest that being mean to the baby is a great way to get lots of attention, though??? Surely you're rewarding an undesired behaviour?"

In ordinary circumstances then I would agree with you. But when there's a new baby in the family, all the normal rational rules change. It's such a huge change in teh life of an older child. The older one is craving attention - attention that a few weeks ago he would have witholut question. Now somebody else is getting all the attention,a nd to add insult to injury, he it expected not only to love and be pleased by this interloper, but to actually help look after it!. I think the older one should be given so much atention that he doesn;lt feel he has to get it by incurring negative attention. The baby will be fine - keep it safe in the easiest way possible and focus on the older one. And acknowledging that you also sometimes find the new baby a bit of a trial gives permission to the older one to feel negative too. People spend so long saying stuff about "What a lovely new sister you've got" and "aren't you lucky to ahve a new sister to play with" and stuff like that - they've got to have some way of expressing "No she isn;t and no I'm not - she's horrible and takes up mummy's time and I hate her" . And if he doesn;t have to opportunity to express this somehow, he'll hit.

Maybe in the first few weeks the older one should be heaped with attention and allowances made, but this is 7months down the track. There has to come a point where you decide enough is enough, the baby is here to stay,this is our family and we all have to get along. Don't forget at 3yrs old they are testing boundaries anyway, it actually makes them feel more secure to have boundaries in place

But in this case, it does sound as if the older one has had 7 months of "Don;t hurt the baby!" and it hasn't worked.

Thankyou so much for your advice everyone, I've been putting things into action these last two days and it has been better (touch wood). Think I just felt so tired and fed up and couldn't see how things could change or improve.

EffieB, just wanted to say you WILL feel differently about your DS. We had a period of around 9 months last year when DS was biting, both before and after the birth of our baby. It stopped in the 2 or 3 weeks around when she was born, then started again. We were at a loss as to how to tackle it, we'd always been firm and said 'no, biting is wrong, you do NOT bite' but nothing seemed to work - and we felt terribly judged by others. It got to the state that when baby was about 2 months old, I really didn't feel that I could love DS in the way that I once had, and I felt terribly sad - just sick to the stomach. But thank goodness our nursery and health visitor were GREAT. We started consistently giving time out, with DS having to sit on a rug for 2 minutes; that allowed me not to get cross in the same way as before because for those 2 minutes I was cooling down... For some things he'd get a warning (ie if you do this again then I will have to give you time out) but for biting it was straight to time out. Health visitor also took us through TripleP (positive parenting) which again gave some good strategies, ie looking at the behaviour and what led up to it and then thinking of ways to tackle that behaviour, then analysing your success over a period of time. I'd agree that tiredness made things worse, but I also think DS was developing a negative perception of himself, who he was and therefore 'living up to that' (if that makes sense). I'm lucky that he's always been very loving to baby (for which I am very very grateful) but he did bite her at least once. I think the worst was thinking that I couldn't do anything, the impotence of not having him listen to me or take any notice of our futile efforts at getting him to stop biting. Now that's all stopped, and I am able to really enjoy my little boy again. I know I still need to keep on top of things - there's always SOMETHING that needs to be tackled, but at least now I know that things like this can be changed.

Hang in there! And keep smiling.

Oooh yes, I just remembered the other thing we did was to introduce a sticker chart, which built up into rewards if a certain number of stickers were won. This worked best when used for a specific thing, eg we had it for being good on the changing mat/getting dressed (which used to be flailing legs/kicking). To start with make these fairly easy to achieve, so that your DS feels it is possible to get a sticker. Rewards can be something he enjoys doing with you, eg reading a book, or later perhaps building to a bigger/less frequent reward such as swimming trip. Writing this makes me realise that we've stopped doing this because things improved so much, but I think it really helps if you are wanting to improve a specific thing. It also balances out Time Out, ie will give him something positive to aim for rather than something to avoid. Think I will have to introduce it again here...

Here's a link to the TripleP tip sheet on charting rewards (opens Word document)...