What do you do with a 4 year old with persistent 'challenging behaviour?

[LaTourEiffel]

I probably shouldn't even be starting this thread at this time of night, because I'm not sure I've got the energy to know where to start.

In a nutshell, DS1 is 4.5 and bright, articulate, funny, clever blah blah blah.

He's also an absolute menace that I'm really struggling with, his behaviour is outrageous.

I have a note from his teacher (school nursery) that he 'kicked another child in the ear'. That childs mother was there and said simply 'we don't do that' and he was taken inside by his teacher for 'a chat'. He then hit, scratched her and screamed in her face.

I'm not quite sure how they managed to calm him down...he attends a private nursery as well as the school and he was collected by his nursery worker.

I phoned at lunchtime to see how he was (suspected he might not be an angel as had bad weekend) and talked to his key worker. I asked her to try to keep him out of any more trouble this afternoon, and whilst he was a little stroppy, they did manage it.

He was bright, happy and chirpy when I picked him up, happily ate dinner, watched telly, played nicely with brother and daddy and had lovely cuddles with me at bedtime.

What am I supposed to do? These mega-meltdowns are happening more and more often and seem to be getting increasingly violent. One parent of a child in his class has complained about him to both nursery and school and they have to be kept apart now.

I've just got the end of a ridiculously long toilet training road....and now I've gone crashing into this.

If anyone talks to him 'in the wrong way', he will over-react, he's very sensitive about the tiniest of things. He screams, throws things, punches, kicks, bites, scratches, spits....

Where did my little boy go? I'm in tears writing this as I genuinely don't know what to do with him. I'm embarassed and feel like I'm failing him - and the people that look after him whilst I'm working.

I don't want him to be a bully, or the kid that no-one likes. How can I help him? Is it even possible to help?

We've tried sticker charts and they had been working really well...until today. I just don't know what to do.

Nursery did an assessment and have said that they believe that he isn't in control when he has these meltdowns, and that it isn't his fault. They have given me loads of forms to fill in about his behaviour that I don't even understand. They have said that if we don't sort this behaviour out now, then its going to cause lots of problems when he starts school in September.

I went to the GP, and the response there was pretty much 'kids have tantrums, deal with it'.

I've searched threads on MN, and whilst I have found lots that talk about testosterone surges at about this age, I can't find anything outside of MN to support this. I also haven't found anything that really helps on those threads as DS' behaviour is so much more extreme than what I've read about.

Domesticslattern (i could be your mn name sister :-) ), I'll go and have a look at that book.

I recently bought three books: MN - toddlers (great book, makes me feel so much better that I'm not alone), The No Cry Sleep Solution (again, enjoying this book, very non-judgey about the fact that I've completely failed to teach DS2 how to sleep and small steps are getting us in the right direction).

The third is the baby whisperer, the toddler years. I do not like this book. Its very childish / churlish of me but basically it seems to be saying that all the behavioural issues are my fault and until I embrace that fact, nothing will change.

Now obviously, there are going to be things that I've done in the way I've responded (experimenting with different responses etc) that won't have helped - but I'm asking for help, I don't need salt to rub in. I shan't be reading any more of this book - she just makes me feel lousy.

I bought these as I, like your DH, just felt like I had to be doing something, and I enjoy reading so its a good double, AFAIC.

Will go and peruse Amazon :-)

Oh, LeninGrad, what is 'YR':

LeninGrad Tue 24-May-11 15:08:49 Is he YR?

Glad it's helpful. So... I would go the multi-pronged approach (is that the right word?!).

I think getting back some control of the situation is important to you so if you can do a couple of things that are quite gentle really this may be really helpful.

I would phone up the health visitor, have a chat and if it seems like a good idea book a visit.

Also book an appointment with nursery (and maybe school too if appropriate, shows you are serious in helping improve your DS's behaviour) to discuss his behaviour. When you go I would go with a listening/open minded attitude and tell them how you are thinking of tweaking his routine/he may be getting very overtired etc. I wouldn't go into too much detail re his awful behaviour- I would only disclose stuff on a need to know basis!

I would start asking around re childminders. Here there are quite a few who take (school) nursery children. Do you have any SAHM friends who might give you some inside info on them!? They don't need to be using them to have an idea what they are like (you can get a general idea just observing them in the playground!).

Just coming on to thread to say I am reading with interest as DS (3.5) has a lot of similar stuff going on. With us the toilet training is still not complete (6.5 months in) so there's that as well, plus recently mobile baby sister suddenly becoming a threat of sorts and getting hit/hurt a lot ... he has dreadful meltdowns, mostly at home.

Too tired to say much now apart from it's really helping me to read your thread, so thanks. It sounds like you are tackling it with a lot more energy than I feel like I have right now x

LeninGrad that link was fab! Thanks for that, I've been trying to find more information about the retention of reflexes but had only been searching for RMT, not retention of reflexes (I know, duh!).

I'd come to the conclusion it was all hocus-pocus but wouldn't do any harm, but maybe there is some truth in it? I don't know.

We've got another meeting coming up, hopefully she'll be able to help find some ways to encourage DS to do the exercises as he's completely lost interest and I can't force him.

Glad there are others out there finding the thread helpful, as I said before, its not all about me and if you've got questions DirtyMartini, I'm not protective about who started the thread etc....the more the merrier!

The toilet training was a marathon, so so so so laughable that I bought the stupid GF book on training in a week! Ha! What a joke!

Not that it doesn't work, I know it can - it was just so not for us.

Praying to the potty gods to not let it be like that for DS2!

I'm off to bed, to mull everything over for yet another day...goodnight everyone.. fingers crossed for a good one tomorrow.

Sorry, can't go to bed without referring to your post swalledAfly...

"it can also be me who's tired and unreasonable and emotional - both of us simultaneously being one or all of those things is a true nightmare."

I could, and probably should, have written that too.

I don't feel confident enough to confess my failings yet - but I think a trip for me to the doctors might benefit the whole family. AD review might be appropriate as I'm so on edge and shouty at the moment (stress of all of this & / or depression &/or sleep deprivation? who knows!?). Chat with the doc won't do any of us (my family) any harm.

I'm drinking, does that count as locking after self.... Heading into bed time routine so will be back later.

I think it's lovely all the support you are getting here (excuse if I'm being a bit unmumsnetty) (ponders to self is that a new verb?)
People have come up with some good advice and I hope the issues clear up soon for you.

Four years old can be very wearing (I have lovely temperamental one myself btw) They are like mini teenagers at this age.
Mine was having all her meltdowns & challenging behaviour due to glue ear & hearing problems which is being seen to. Though she is still prone to the odd meltdown every now & again.

Enjoy your glass of wine. Having a rather large glass of rose myself after having a crap day at work!

I have toothache :-(

I know that has nothing whatsoever to do with DS1's behaviour, but I wanted to moan about me for a change :-)

Hope you're all doing OK.

So, how was your day today? (and your son's day?!). Hope the toothache isn't too horrendous.

We had a good day with one blip from DS at 2.30 when he had a meltdown over me using glue to help make his rocket rather than sellotape. This was a really terrrible thing to do . Luckily for all concerned it was short lived (the meltdown).

I also had 2.5 year old sister trying her luck, demanding pudding at breakfast time (jelly or kitkat to be specific) and several other pushing boundaries things during the day- quite normal. Oh yes, did put her in her bed screaming at nap time as well, but for once she did actually have a nap (result!) and was much easier as a result for the rest of the afternoon.

Oh Tgger - you make me feel so much better just through telling me about your DC's 'moments'.

How was yesterday...hmmmm

Right, so on Weds we tried putting DS to bed earlier, he fell asleep by 7.30 which is a good 30-40 mins earlier than normal. However, he then woke at 6.15, which is a good 45 mins earlier than normal. He went to bed at his normal time last night, and still woke up at about 6.15 this morning.

So, should I not have interfered? Or should I perservere? Any thoughts?

Behaviour wise, he had a couple of moments when he was building up to a tantrum but nursery managed to nip it in the bud.

He keeps telling me that his bad behaviour is 'because he's bored'. So, we've gone from having no reason at all, to making them up as I'm sure he's not really bored.

However, he did do a beautiful picture and narrate a story to accompany said picture which DH was then able to read to him at bedtime. He also ate all his dinner and announced a requirement for more (very unusual at home). So he had extras and then had two lots of pudding (2 x cherry bakewells) before heading off to bed.

Overall, not a bad day. Could have been better, but on the plus side, he didn't hurt anyone today and bad behaviour was confined to nursery so i didn't have to deal with it.

I put 'today', I mean yesterday.

Toothache is much better today - been to dentist and got antibiotics, need to go back again in another week though.

Had a pretty good day today. Helped quite a lot by DH having kids whilst I had a lie-in, didn't wake up till midday so actually feel remotely human today.

DS had a couple of moments of grumpiness but a combination of ignoring / jollying kept us on top of things.

He's gone to bed early today after a good couple of hours at soft play, tomorrow we'll be in the car for a bit so am hoping that he'll have an extra nap tomorrow too. Fresh air, exercise, sleep etc all seem to be helping a bit.

However, it seems that with an improvement in behaviour comes a decrease in toileting skills . I'd rather deal with soiled pants though, at least they don't scream at me or wind me up!

Have you read a book called 'raising your spirited child'? I'm not usually one for child rearing books but this one really helped me understand the triggers for my 5 year old ds's meltdowns. We're very much not out of the woods but I do feel I understand him better.

mamaduck, I haven't read that one but I've seen it recommended a couple of times recently, I'll have a bit more of a look into that, thanks x

swallowedAfly, we do try and get ds out to do exercise, but most of the time he's so shattered that it just compounds the problem. He has very poor stamina, though the therapy we're doing has improved it loads too.

Its always such a balancing act.

Well, he just seems to get tired more easily than other kids. Since we started the therapy its been improving, but over the last three or four weeks, it has improved significantly.

He's never been able to walk very far before getting tired, and is not just being lazy, I know my child, he's genuinely been knackered! On the occasions that I've pushed him, the minute I let him in the pushchair, he'd fall asleep, which proved the point to me.

It was very evident about six months ago when he'd refuse to walk further than about a 100 yards. Judging by the 'judgey' looks I get, I guess its not that common.

I have a nearly 4 year old DD and although on the whole she's very well behaved, she's had several meltdowns in nursery where she's scratched her key worker twice on the face,lashed out or screamed at them, refused to go to time out or been very rude to the teachers.

It's almost always without fail at the end of term, when she's been in nursery 4 days a week for several weeks without a holiday. I think it's purely down to tiredness / stress in my DD's case and I've been very conscious to make sure one of us takes time off work regularly so she gets a holiday from childcare. In addition DH has just reduced his hours in work so she spends 1/2 day less in nrusery, just until she starts school in September. Her behaviour definitely improves drastically when she's had a break.

I think little ones find nursery extremely tiring and often quite stressful, especially when they're there all day, and this can reflect in their behaviour.

If he's low in ferritin I suspect that is a large cause of his behaviour. I am [shocked] that he hasn't been prescribed iron for his low ferritin. Ds suffers with this and every time he is put on iron his behaviour improves.

Ds is 5. He doesn't physically lash out but he is very emotionally labile when his levels are low. He just cannot cope with the tiredness other than by tears and tantrums. when he's like this it is exhausting and school also notice it.

I would second the suggestion of changing to a childminder as he will have more downtime.