Please help me deal with with 4yo DS's behaviour before he starts school...

[cathbath]

I've been spoken to twice this week by DS's preschool teachers saying they are concerned by his behaviour. He finds structured activities difficult and will not sit still, or line up or do as he's asked. He tends to be difficult at the beginning and end of the session (eg poking the other children when they are all sitting on the carpet, barging into people or throwing his bag in the air (not actually being malicious or hurting anyone, just being very annoying). They struggle to get him to come inside at the end of a playing out session. When the teachers tell him off he thinks it's funny - a kind of game. They are worried about how he will settle into school, as it will be a much more structured environment there. He is due to start in September.

His preschool teachers are lovely and caring - they do seem to understand DS. They say he is caring towards the other children and very bright and sociable. He loves maths and puzzles and when engaged in an activity he likes he will concentrate for ages. They said he tends to take things literally (eg irony/jokes) but I'm not sure whether that is something to be concerned about? They said he can also get bored easily and is ready for school in many ways (he will be 5 in September). However his teacher will expect certain things and might find him disruptive. I am worried that he might end up labelled as a naughty child...

I had some brilliant help last year when I posted about DS's behaviour and things have got better at home since then... but I am so downhearted that DS is still having problems. What can I do between now and September to improve things?

Have you been referred to a paediatrician or SALT?

No we have not been referred to anyone - what is SALT?

The preschool teachers are not concerned per se about his behaviour - they seem to deal with him ok. They are more concerned about the changeover to school and the things that will be expected of him there.

They said for most of the session he is lovely - it is the transitions and structured bits he struggles with. I don't know how 'normal' this is for a 4yo boy or if he is on the extreme end... He is the only kid where they have to keep his bag back at the end of the session to stop him throwing it...

Why is he like this?! Argh this feels terrible to write - I think the teacher's words were a big knock back just when I thought we were doing much better and I thought I was getting to grips a bit more with his behaviour and having some lovely times with him (among the exhausting ones!). Now I have school to worry about... The teacher said not to worry or take this to heart but of course I am doing...

First things first, have you had his hearing tested? If he's being silly when he's supposed to be listening to someone it could be that he's getting noted because he can't hear what they're saying. Best to rule that out straight away.

Also, if he's nearly 5 then it could be that he's bored there and isn't being challenged enough. Is it a preschool with an actual, trained teacher in charge, or with nursery nurse type staff? It can sometimes make a real difference. At my nephew's preschool the staff were very concerned about his behaviour but at his school nursery the teacher can handle him just fine. So when your son starts reception with a teacher in charge his behaviour could be very different.

But, there are things you can so to help him with the things the staff have flagged up. Try to schedule 5 or 10 minutes a day for an activity you want him to do. It could be a simple jigsaw, a little game, painting, play dough, cooking, whatever. Something fun but that will take concentration and that he has to do. Because although in reception there will be lots of free play, there will be times when he has to do something so he needs to learn to do as he's told.

We haven't had his hearing tested, as he seems to have very good hearing (he just appears to ignore us at times) - but I will get it tested just to rule it out.

The preschool leader has offered to ring the health visitor on our behalf so we can get some support from there... I feel a bit unsure about that (haven't seen a health visitor since he was a baby) but I think it would probably be worth a try.

Yes I think he is bored and not being challenged enough at preschool. It is actually a playgroup and they are not trained teachers (though they are experienced and really good with him), but they do feel he is too old for playgroup now. They feel he would definitely benefit from being at school, if he can learn some self-control.

At home we do reading and jigsaws; he's good with his writing and particularly loves numbers and doing sums. He is keen to learn new things and will get really engaged in an activity (he often forgets to go to the toilet). However at times when I expect him to do something he doesn't want to do, such as getting dressed, toileting or sitting still for lunch, we struggle. I have to be incredibly patient, either making a game of it or encouraging him every step of the way. I've also realised that he doesn't respect me much at times; he doesn't listen or feel he has to do what I say. In fact he often does the opposite (and has done since a young age). DH and I had a big talk last night and agreed that we need to be a lot firmer now and expect more from him now, as he is nearly 5... I'm just thinking of some ways to go about this which will boost his self-esteem (and mine!) and also give him clear limits...

SALT = Speech and Language Therapist, Taking speech literally can be a marker for a speech & language impairment although I am not saying he has obviously.

An example of my DS literal understanding of language are, "my arms are killing me" (heavy shopping) DS "REALLY?"

The HV is a good place to start (hopefully) good luck.

Cathbath - I could have written this OP. My DS starts school in Sept and am increasingly worried. He is a lovely, adventurous, affectionate, bright boy, but sounds very much like you DS... throwing, being disruptive, getting very overexcited, defiant, wild really. He was kept in - when all the others went out to play - at nursery today as he refused to listen to the teachers, and was being wild (full of beans and then some as they describe him).

Mostly this behaviour is reserved for home, but they have flashes of it at nursery, and I have had to stop any other class based activities as he is disruptive enough to warrant comments to me from other parents/leaders etc.

I too am trying to be soooo patient and empathic. I do see a bit of me in him, I was bright but disruptive when younger... and turned out ok.

Anyway, not much help, but you have my sympathy, and am watching this thread with interest. You are not alone.

if pre-school hadn't said anything would you have had any concerns about him? anything at all?

has the teacher suggested that she thinks something might be "wrong"? or just that this is behaviour that could/shold be improved?

Reindeergaga, thank you - it sounds like our DS's are very similar. That is exactly how I would describe DS (the lovely, adventurous, affectionate and bright bit too). He is always full of beans and can be quite exhausting to be around. I don't really understand where the behaviour comes from. My DD (2yo) is very different - extremely calm, self-reliant and easy going! DS demands so much more attention than she does - he is always looking for input from me whatever he is doing. I had to stop taking him to class-based activities too which was really sad. He has started to be a lot better at home though recently... hopefully like you say they'll grow out of it and will be fine...

Thisisyesterday - I have always been concerned about DS as I struggled with his behaviour right from when he could walk... I just wonder at times why he gets so out of control and is so oppositional. I kind of expressed this to the teacher and she mentioned about him taking jokes literally, but I haven't noticed that myself. His speech is very advanced and he makes friends easily. I think they think it's more a parenting issue really and that the behaviour could be improved. The thing that concerns me is that he can be difficult for other people too - not just with me and DH - he can't seem to rein in the wild behaviour.

hmm. i only asked because he sounds a lot like my ds1 who has Asperger's.
it's very common for children with ASD to find it difficult changing activity, hence being very difficult at the beginning and ends of sessions.
taking things very literally is another "symptom"
and getting very "engaged" in things, possibly to the exclusion of anything else?

it was just a thought, obviously some things are just normal small boy behaviour, and I think the problem comes when certain behaviours aren't outgrown when you would expect them to be, or when they are just more pronounced or cause problems in day to day life.

might be worth speaking to your GP or health visitor?

He sounds like my DS, 3.2yrs. I would describe it as being very spirited! Some children are just full of energy. IMO it's a temperament and personality thing, therefore it cannot be changed as such but it needs to be worked with. Teachers will just have to get creative.

I am reading a book on it at the moment, as like you, I have found my DS a real challenge almost since day 1. I think they will learn to curb the more wild side of their behaviours as they get older.

Thanks for the replies - I have just had a lovely chat with the health visitor recommended by DS's preschool and she was very helpful. We are meeting up the week after next to discuss things properly. Really glad I rang her now. She is also going to work with DS's teacher at preschool to see how he is there.

Aspergers has crossed my mind at times as well as ADHD... I'm not sure he fits all the 'symptoms' though. I have been reading up on 'highly sensitive children' recently and wonder if being highly sensitive might be a cause of the behaviour. He is very sensitive to my moods and his worst behaviour tends to coincide with changes or stresses in the environment (such as having workmen in the house, or his granny coming to stay). His teacher is wondering if all the talk of starting school is making him particularly unsettled at the moment. Certain things are always a challenge, such as getting dressed.

I'm hoping to get some strategies to cope more positively. I tried to talk to DS today about what we were going to do next, and he wouldn't listen... I sat him down and got down to his level, but he wouldn't look me in the eye and just fidgetted... it ended up becoming a battle of wills to get him to sit still long enough to listen to me. I didn't lose my temper and was incredibly patient but it is very draining. Yet we have the most in depth conversations about animals hibernating or deciduous trees!

Hi. I too have a son who is 4 in sept. So he has another year left at pre school! He is intelligent and a lovely little boy but at times he is such a challenge. He has always been a very hectic child,always on the go. He makes me tired just watching him! He started pre school at 2.3years as he needed something more to occupy him. He is frustrating me with his behaviour at times as he pushes other children in frustration of not getting what he wants. Was horrified when his pre school told me he had bitten another child over a scooter today! They said he reacted so quickly he obviously isnt thinking of his actions. He knows this behaviour is not acceptable and he really isnt a nasty boy. But this is the second time hes done it at pre school and he does it to his sister(2) at times. Ive tried talking to him and taking treats away but am at a loss! He has started to ignore what I say and just says no when I ask him to do things!

Hi jface27 - sorry to hear about your DS's problems at preschool - I too know that feeling of being horrified by being told something they've done. I think it is normal at that age not to think first and occasionally to hit out or bite. DS has certainly had his moments of pushing and hitting other children (and occasionally me) when he was younger - he even hit out at a teacher once when she was telling him off - totally mortifying. It was hard to deal with but he seems to have grown out of that stage now thank goodness! DS was occasionally quite rough around his sister too, but he's absolutely wonderful with her now - very caring and he always looks out for her. I am very proud of how grown up and caring he is becoming - I wouldn't have anticipated this a few months ago.

The defiance is so hard to cope with though - hopefully there are some strategies to deal with it that I haven't tried yet?! I am trying to not raise my voice at all times, staying strong and in control whatever happens, as at least then the situation doesn't degenerate.

Have skimmed thread, but have you contacted his new school? My DS was like your DS in some ways and it really helps for the teacher to be prepared from day 1. Also they may help with a strategy.

Re the defiance. If he does something as you have asked, I heap the praise on and sometimes give a reward and tell him why.