Violent behaviour in little boys- how to cope after having a girl?

[titferbrains]

Pg and due in sep. I have one strong willed, stubborn bu mostly pleaSant and sociable dd.

I am pretty horrified generally by the behaviour of little boys around me, more wh iny, clingy, and more violent, endlessly waving stick shaped things about and shouting aggressively etc.

Don't know what I'm having but am trying understand boys behaviour a bit better. What do you have to tolerate and what do you say is unacceptable?

I have friends with boys who seem to be much less strict than I am about all the kinds of behaviour I mention. In particular I struggle with violence, even watching brothers playfightng with sticks looks like too much to me - I just feel it's so important to teach kids that violence isn't acceptable but perhaps when you've had a boy you can sigh and say boys will be boys and feel they'll grow out of it?

Just wonder how to let their hormones do what they need to do but also teach that violence has consequences and is wrong?

DD (2.8) wrestles her brother (4.10) to the ground with ease...

sunshine

It's very interesting to think about, and I am certainly not dismissing the idea that there are some cultural and societal expectations, but that seems (to me) to be about what our children will do rather than what they are doing iyswim? IE the City is top heavy with men and the caring professions are full of women.

I think I find it annoying when somebody posts how they are really upset about having a boy/girl post dating scan and everyone piles in to tell them off and comes out with the tomboy stuff.

We may be able to smooth some of the edges of the differences but I would be very surprised to see an about turn completely. I do acknowledge that financially etc a lot of male domination has been achieved through physical strength (going back centuries btw here!)

grumpypants I'm enjoying this discussion so I hope I'm not coming across as lecturing or argiumentative. It's not my intention.

You said: "IE the City is top heavy with men and the caring professions are full of women." as if that demonstrates that men and women are different. However, to me that simply demonstrates how women's expectations and experiences have been limited simply because they are women.

To succeed in the City requires a lot of hard work, time and connections, most of which have been denied to women in the past because of their role as mothers and domestic care-takers. That is slowly being changed but even today a woman in the City can find her career significantly damaged by taking a career break to have children, and if she goes back to work almost immediately, she is made to feel guilty by society (and often her peers) in a way that men almost never are.

All too often, even in 2011, women still find they have to make a choice between having children or pursuing a career. For women not working in highly paid careers, this is even worse as the cost of childcare also becomes a factor limiting what roles they can do. One of the reasons women call into the caring professions is because those roles often fit best around a woman's own family commitments.

DS1 (4yo) isn't allowed guns or swords, or to hit anyone, has never watched Star Wars or Ben 10 or action films or anything...

He's currently running round the garden shooting 'baddies' with a gun made of Duplo

I never believed the 'boys will be boys' line but now I have 4yo and 2yo DSes I'm starting to see some truth in it!

They are very affectionate and loving though. When not pestering each other they are always kissing and cuddling.

I feel sad when generalisations are made about boys. My son is sweet, loving and well behaved.

It is sexists to say "boys will be boys". Boys are individuals and each has a different personality.

i have 4 girls and my baby#5 is my first boy.

he is only 4months old and so far have noticed no difference except in the obvious ways.

however...

dd1, lovely sweet social toddler, now moody 11yr old

dd2, very into computer games, likes solving things, well mannered.

dd3, tomboy. into pirates cars, jumping off things, shooting things, only girl in the class to go in on dress up day as something other than a princess. spent the day haing sword fights with the boys.

dd4, very into pretend play and playing dead

I have two boisterous boys although I think one is definitely more so than the other (the little one goes along with what his older brother does). I do let them watch Starwars and so on and they are currently obsessed with pretending that everything is a lightsaber, but then so are all the little boys in my son's Kindergarten. I also have a (very active) DD and what I have observed is that boys are more interested in testing physical limits in dangerous ways--climbing trees, jumping off of play structures etc. and are perhaps a little less wary. I cannot take my eyes off them for a second and by the end of the day I often have no voice left from the constant lecturing about why we don't do certain things.

I must say I find OP refreshingly honest. It's pretty obvious (ime) that a lot of mums of only girl(s) find boys an alien species and can be utterly horrified by them. I've heard mothers yelling at their DD's "that's too dangerous!" and then my 4 DC (1 girl included) go and do said dangerous activity, repeatedly, with no ill effect.

Did you really NEVER enjoy wrestling as a child, OP? Or shooting with water pistols? Or poking sticks into things? Did you never snap and try to smack somebody? The mind boggles.

If you accept that children (boys or girls) need to push boundaries, and every boundary, then it becomes a matter of managing that instinct, not controlling it. Let them take risks when you can, don't hold them back unless you really need to. Boys love to destroy things, so DSs are allowed to use sticks to bash down the cow parsley on the verges around here, but they are not allowed to bash roses in people's gardens. You manage their urges, just like you do your daughter's desire to wear lipstick at age 3yo.

See I never get threads like these.

Yes my DS will use toys as guns (till I stop him) - never alone- and only with friends DD's who taught him. Gun are not toys and DS is told this. (my bro is MIL).

I know girls who are argumentative, loud, boisterous, fight, climbing on everything, and I know lots of boys who aren't. I also know boys that are like this and girls who aren't.

There is some literature on raising boys - and biological arguments. Pre-school boys tend to have a lower concentration level - hence the all girls are born making daisy chains stereotype.

I think the diffference is in parenting - any child whos allowed to behave badly and wants to will. And if its a boy whos parents say 'boys will be boys' the stereotype will never go away.

FWIW my DS is like the girls you descibed in the OP.

Congratulations on being PG OP - and enjoy your new addition.

My boisterous testosterone-flushed shouty LOUD adhd-suspect boy loves making daisy chains, loves flowers in general. Not to mention YooHoos, sea shells, fossils, New Age "crystals" and sampling his sister's nail polish and lipstick. :) Do I get some kind of parenting award for producing the most contradictory child?

(Meanwhile my quiet shy thoughtful not-impulsive boys have no interest in lipstick or flowers...)

I rather like my noisy, physical, full-on, climb-everything, stick-waving boys actually. That doesn't make them naughty or badly parented

Agreed MegBusset. Well put.

I haven't read the thread so apologies if this has already been pointed out to you 25 times, but my son is the most cuddly affectionate adorable little guy and my daughter will stamp on my foot if she is cross with me. She is the one who ripped the skirting boards off the wall, drew on the walls etc..

You sound like Betty Draper assuming that a boy will be a wild animal after yuor girl! I bet your boy will be a dote.

I do not allow DS to have nasty violent toys or play rough games with anyone who doesn't enjoy it but he will fashion guns out of sticks and Lego. To ban it all completely would make it all the more appealing IMO. He has guns at his fathers house though and water pistols/nerf shooters at home. He is 8 and I can't really choose what others buy him or what he spends his money on.

I have just had a DD and when pregnant was equally worried about how to manage the whinging, and for want of a better phrase quite frankly bitchy and spoilt behaviour I see in lots of little girls I see! I feel much more at home with the "boy" attitude of "shove him over and be best mates again" rather than the little girls who pick on each other and manipulate. I realise that I am doing a real disservice to little girls here but it just goes to show how typical behaviour can be viewed when it seems alien to your children.

In the same vein I won't buy DD any princessy/tarty toys but won't stop her playing games with her friends.

Am I alone in thinking that calling young boys behaviour "voilent" just because they are having fun with their imaginations is a bit ott??? Sorry but what happened to good old fashioned cowboys and indians? It's innocent fun.

I have boys. They are very young. They have no idea about death/murder/evil stuff. They don't watch much TV, love Thomas the tank engine and have yet to play a computer game of any sort. The eldest is 5. All 3 play together very well. They are EXTREMELY loud, boistrous, and yes they do hit out a little, but young as they are, they understand hurting one other is just not allowed.

But I have no problems whatsoever with them playing with their swords, or pretending to shoot each other (no idea where this idea came from but maybe eldest saw someone at school do it) and I often get told "Mummy, I'm going to kill you", to which I always reply "I don't think so, killing is not nice" but there is no way on earth I am going to tell them a shocking story of someone who shot himself in the head....

They are beautiful in their innocence. I would never wish to destoy that.

OP I read your post and seriously think you need to relax a bit. You'll deal with whatever comes your way I'm sure.

Boys can be very loud and yes, they like to carry sticks (mine use sticks as their "walking sticks") but they are so loving and lovable and every day my 4 year old kisses my arm 14 times and counts each one and tells me how much he loves me, likes me and adores me! : )

sunshine, so pleased to read your posts (and all others from people who, like me, have loving, empathic, sensitive, energetic - ie NORMAL boys); i do find my head done in on a regular basis by the backwards logic of gendered parenting. for instance, we could read that raw male energy as evidence that men are warmongering, ambitious beings, treat them accordingly, and unknowingly shunt a male child down that path. for me it comes down to being aware of what we put out to our children. parenting isn't about creating a specific kind of person but ensuring their childhoods are as free as possible from gender stereotyping as possible to allow them to be PEOPLE, not boys or girls.
i can understand op's position, but, really, gender stereotyping happens all over the place. you just have to do your best to ensure your household, ie the primary models of behaviour, is as honest (ie human, not "male"/"female") as you can.

by the way, op, forgot to say - i absolutely agree that, particularly in this media-driven age, it's important to explain that violence is unacceptable and has consequences. but you have to do this primarily by modelling it i think. my boys are 8 and 4. i have smacked the eldest (not the youngest), about 5 tumes i think, although not for a good few years, and i hope to never do it again; the experience of losing control in that way, and the fallout, were useful to me in terms of realising that it wasn't for me to "teach" about violence, but to understand the impetus. so i can talk with my boys about how violence shifts the emphasis onto itself, and so actually makes it a lot harder to sort out the original issue. we talk about how being violent makes you feel horrid, including when you're dishing it out. i accept too that although male and female brains might have almost no inherent differences, my boys, for whatever reason, do sometimes find themselves filled with hectic energy, and that whacking cowparsley with a large stick is a way of chanelling that. so i think the emphasis has to be on communication, acceptance, awareness of yourself and any gender bias you might be perpetuating, and on managing emotions. can't see that that is any different for a girl...

ds is a lovely gentle boy - does like the stick waving thing (is 6) but is calm, chilled & darling.
dd (19mo), thug in a frock. RUNS up behind him to clout & run. SHOUTS all the time. Frightens the bejeezus out of me on a daily basis (however a bit thrilled she can already stand her ground )
Most of my friends boys are loving & kind & easy, all roll their eyes about their girls....

sunshine - that's where I was agreeing with you! As in, I think when little boys and girls do exhibit natural differences (I have four, and mixed, so obv anecdotal here) and I don't think that this is due greatly to what society expects them to do; as children get older, I think that there is an expectation of what sort of jobs they might do, (generally, not individually, hence the top heavy city remark) - does that make sense? Also, in referring to historical context I think physical strength, child bearing etc have had a natural place in how society has developed, which needs to be challenged as people gain more rights and develop alternative ideas to the traditional 'wife at home' thing.

BUT! I am not convinced that gender expectation rather than just gender makes my boys charge around the garden, take up rugby etc etc and my daughters (who have tried karate and rugby - equal opportunities in this household!) prefer drama.

wow loads of interesting replies here.

I know that I will be a mother who tries not to encourage any particular "gendering" in the home and am not concerned about that, but AM concerned about the influence of other kids who think its ok to point/jab with sticks, hit their siblings etc - which is what my friends kids are like. If your kids are regularly around kids like this, how are do you find your kids are afterwards? Do you have a chat to remind them that you shouldn't hit anyone, sibling or other?

Also, I am sorry if I sound a bit uptight in my OP. But time and again I have seen boys clinging and whiny where DDs are mostly calm and independent, they are the insecure ones who "act out" eg lose their temper or do violent things to get mummy's attention. Is this all down to bad parenting or do boys need more nurturing so they are a bit more secure in themselves? I am struggling to think of any girls who have shown really unpleasant behaviour. They tend to ignore kids they don't want to play with or sometimes say rude things. Obv have seen tantrums but accept that all kids tantrum from time to time, including my own DD.

When my friend comes round with her son he generally trashes things eg. train track, wants to empty stuff onto the floor then walk away from it.

I am not expecting a really boyish boy to come out of my womb but I am wondering about how to handle these behaviours. Another friends little boy seems to be a bit insecure and I think that is the cause of his bad behaviour. What can you do early on to mitigate this? He seems to have finally grown out of his shouting temper tantrums but I will always be rather wary of him, I think.

FWIW, I am equally concerned about coping with the hailstorm of PINK that I guess will come my way eventually. ATM the word princess is banned in my house and I try not to make anything of wearing pink etc. Haven't bought any costumes etc and haven't made a fuss about ballet etc. But lots of girls around DD already seem to be quite excited about this stuff. Fortunately, mums I have talked to seem to say that they don't all embrace the pink princess theme too much so I am praying DD is one of those. I don't mind the pink thang that much but I really do mind the pointlessness of wanting to be a princess. I mean, what do princesses actually do all day except wear heavy crowns and uncomfortable outfits? Firefighting or cooking or dancing etc win every time!

Having lived in two different cultures I have noticed that the girliness of girls seems to be much more emphasised in the UK than in Sweden. I grew up gutting fish and climbing trees with other boys and girls, and it was only when I got to this country that I regularly encountered girls who didn't want to play in the sandpit because they were always wearing pretty dresses and didn't want to get dirty.

I have never found boys to be more whiny or clingy than girls - I think this suggests that you have been projecting a stereotype, or else fallen into the trap of 'protecting' your girl from those nasty boys out there.

Hopefully once your ittle bnoy is born you will find that he is a a sweet cudly individual just like your girls.

Some boys do have a very out-there physicality about them (but so do many girls) and I don't think it's quite accurate to equate stick fighting / wrestling etc with 'violence'. It is a form of challenge, just like chess, only a physical version - it is a battle, just like netball or football is - it does not mean that they will ever wish to do harm to another human being. Many children thrive on physical challenge - regular trips tthe park to burn off steam are essential!

But I agree, the flipside stereotyping of 'boys will be boys' re genuine bad behaviour is also not good.

We have two boys and I do know what you mean about parents of boys seemingly allowing them to be "more whiny, clingy, and more violent, endlessly waving stick shaped things about and shouting aggressively etc. "

It winds me up enormously when I see this. Does my head in. Boys are only like this if you allow them to be. In our house we tolerate absolutley no whining or fighting between our two boys. The moment they start they get separated to cool down. We do allow 'gun/sword shaped' objects but absolutley no physical contact at all. Play fighting always ends in real fighting.

Boys have huge energy and need to run it off. If they don't they get frustrated and it breaks out as fighting and whining. Let them run themselves ragged with a football, soft play area or whatever it takes, then give them plenty of food, drink and sleep and and they are an absolute joy.

You should not have any worry at all about having a baby boy. Good luck!

Cory- I agree - this polarisation of girls and boys activities is way beyond my own childhood in the UK. I am a -ahem - more mature MN-er - and in my childhood NO toys were pink, my brother generally inherited all my hand down casual clothes because boys and girls T Shirts were mostly plain unisex ones, quite unlike the differnce between the pink embroidered fantasies and the combat-gear 'Here Comes Trouble' outfits of now.

We were ALL up trees and lighting fires, and ou in the rain, and we ALL made cakes, which weren't feminised as fussy pink glittery 'cupcakes'