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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

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Original poster

Is it 'normal' for a child to take such pleasure in the upset of other chldren?

29 replies

Gwinkofchocolate · 25/04/2011 20:17

I have name-changed for this and may be vague about certain specifics, as I don't want the mother of this child to identify them as I know she is on MNet.

We had a child (aged 6) over to play today whom my DC and I know well. It has always been apparent that he is rather excitable and unpredictable. But today it was very obvious that he enjoyed hurting, annoying or seeing other children cry.

When I was telling one of my DC off for something he was skipping, laughing and arm flapping and audibly groaned in disappointment whe I closed the door so he couldn't see.

He trapped a 2yr old's hand in the lid of a toy box, making them cry. I was told, by children, that it was done on purpose, but no adult could absolutely confirm this.

Finally, he would deliberately sabotage any game that other people were playing. He would pinch the ball, or grab the racket of the person playing. When other children screamed or got upset it would make him giggle and skip up and down flapping his arms with glee.

Finally he took himself off and played quite happily on his own while the other children played nicely together.

Is this normal naughty behaviour or is it some sort of behavioural problem? I ask, because my DC can be naughty (believe me ), but they don't get such delight from upsetting others and I find this quite difficult behaviour.

Any thoughts welcome.

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CoteDAzur · 25/04/2011 20:21

No, not normal, ime.

I've seen this once before, and it turned out later that the boy was being very roughly treated by his father. Learned behavior, in other words.

Original poster

Gwinkofchocolate · 25/04/2011 20:23

I don't think that is the case, though I know you never know. I see a lot of the family and I'd be extremely surprised.

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Original poster

Gwinkofchocolate · 25/04/2011 20:55

I was wondering whether it might be part of a wider behavioural issue, or whether it is just a brand of naugtiness that i've not encountered.

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CoteDAzur · 25/04/2011 21:08

I think it is a bit worse than "naughty" to take pleasure in others' suffering.

There used to be a name for this: psychopathy. However, this diagnosis is no longer popular, apparently.

Original poster

Gwinkofchocolate · 25/04/2011 21:10

He is certainly challenging, but I'm not sure he's a psychopath! I guess there are sliding scales for these things though.....

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SilveryMoon · 25/04/2011 21:13

My toddlers can be a bit like that, but not to that extreme.
I've seen a few children with autism show that kind of enjoyment and interest in other peoples upset.
Obviously not saying your friend's ds is autistic, but that's what I have seen, but not in every autistic child I have come across either.
Or maybe his emotions aren't identified and guided as they should be.
To the extreme you have mentioned, I'd say no, not normal

peppapighastakenovermylife · 25/04/2011 21:13

My DS1 (4.5 years) seems to love seeing his sister (2.5 years) get told off or disciplined in some way.

If she hurts herself though he is very sympathetic and would not laugh. He would not deliberately hurt her either. Ok well thats a bit of a lie - sometimes he pushes her if she pushes him first but it is never unprovoked / plain spiteful

Quasimojo · 25/04/2011 21:14

A little soon to be having him down as a psychopath I would say. Its unusual rather than abnormal behaviour imo. Any number of things could cause it. Children behave strangely when stressed. Maybe there is stuff going on in his life that is hard for a 6 year old to express healthily. Maybe he felt left out or some such thing and couldnt deal with it. Did you ask him why he was doing it?

Hassled · 25/04/2011 21:14

I wouldn't think this was normal in a 6 year old, either. By 6 they usually have some degree of empathy - some ability to imagine what it would be like for them if someone took their racket, or hurt their hand.

Does he have siblings? Is he used to being around other children other than in a school context?

5inthebed · 25/04/2011 21:23

My DS2 has autism, and he takes great pleasure in seeing people upset. It isn't in a sadistic manor, he just doesn't understand emotions. He regularly annoys his cousin as she is very dramatic and it is so hard to get him (and her) to understand that it isn;t a nice thing to do.

Obviously not saying this child has an ASD.

wigglybeezer · 25/04/2011 21:30

Mt first thought was ASD, the arm flapping when excited is common in children with an ASD as is reacting inappropriately to others emotions (eg. laughing when others cry ), and prefering to play alone and not being able to understand turn-taking and sharing in games. If he is brought up in a normal family and reasonably well looked after he is extremely unlikely to be a psychopath!

Original poster

Gwinkofchocolate · 25/04/2011 21:31

I did wonder about autism, as I think he may show other traits such as talking in a sing-song voice, liking routine, avoiding conversation and eye contact. I couldn't find anything about this particular aspect of his behaviour when I did a bit of research though.

I asked him about the toy-box incident and he denied it, I told him it wasn't a nice thing to do, but as I hadn't seen it I couldn't take it much further. I have asked him before why he laughs at inappropriate times, but he usually continues to laugh. His DM is lovely, but doesn't seem to think it is out of the ordinary. I'm not really sure how to broach the "other children don't behave like this" thing.

He has a younger brother (4), but he doesn't really show much interest in him.

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SilveryMoon · 25/04/2011 21:36

Like you say, the sing-song voice, routine, and especially lack of eye contact are all fairly common traits.
Alot of ASD children I've known actually cannot look at people because it makes their eyes burn.
Not sure how I'd bring it up with the mum unless we were very very close friends.
Does she ever complain about his behaviour? Because that's when I'd pipe up and tell her to seek advice from somewhere.
A friend of mine recently asked what I thought about her ds's behaviour, but because I didn't want to upset or offend her, I told her that in her position I'd make an appointment to meet with the childs teacher and see what they thought of behaviours and what advice they could give me with coping at home.

Original poster

Gwinkofchocolate · 25/04/2011 21:37

xposted with 5inthebed and wiggly.

I totally believe that his behaviour is not sadistic. The other day, he was throwing heavy toys around near to smaller children. He continued, despite being told not to and I could see him getting closer and closer to hitting a child until I intervened. I could see that he was more intrigued to see what would happen if he hit a child, rather than just being outright malicious. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

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Original poster

Gwinkofchocolate · 25/04/2011 21:42

School have made comments, rather than officially raising concerns. His DM seems to dismiss what is said, whereas I see it as them trying to open a dialogue.

I feel a bit more willing to say something to her after what I have learned here. So thank you to everyone for sharing your experiences.

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SilveryMoon · 25/04/2011 21:47

Sounds tricky then.
The way I see it, is the teacher has a degree in some form of childcare and education. Therefore he/she would be far better at spotting something than us untrained parents iyswim.
I have a mothers instinct, I know my children better than anyone else, but I have not spent however long spening 6 hours a day with 30 odd children. I wouldn't shrug off anything a trained professional thought i don't think.

Maybe if she ever says she's at a loss on how to control his behaviour, keep bringing up the option of speaking to the school and find out what other organisations they can put her in touch with

MrsGravy · 25/04/2011 22:11

This sounds exactly like my niece and nephew - my brother's children. They are aged nearly 6 and nearly 9 and have always been like it. 'Spiteful' is the word I would apply - although in their hearing obviously! 'Wind up merchants' might be a less nasty description. If they work out that one of my kids has a favourite toy or special object they will attempt to break it, hide it or steal it...the 9 year old has, since my 6 yo DD was a toddler, told her stories to attempt to frighten her and found her upset at these stories absolutely hilarious. The 6 year old is really rough/violent and will hurt other kids for no reason and in cold blood - usually with a smirk on his face.

This makes them sound horrible and they're not, they can also be sweet, funny and loving and my kids enjoy playing with them. They just seem to have this wierd spiteful streak - usually if they're bored or not getting enough attention. They're really not disciplined for it though which doesn't help. My ex-SIL (and my brother to a certain extent) seem to believe that other children should just fight back and if they don't then it's their fault they're being picked on.

MrsGravy · 25/04/2011 22:12

'NOT' in the hearing that should be in the second line - I'm not a monster!!

Doodlez · 25/04/2011 22:18

Attention-seeking by proxy.

ApocalypseCheeseToastie · 25/04/2011 22:25

My dd has ASD and used to do this, it was the mixture of emotions/facial expressions she enjoyed as she is unable to express herself that way

Original poster

Gwinkofchocolate · 25/04/2011 22:26

Perhaps, but I just don't see it as spiteful. It seems more complex than that to me. I also don't see it as simple attention-seeking. I think he likes the drama, but he doesn't want it to be focused on him. I think he'd be more than happy to observe the fall-out of his actions from a distance and would be more than happy if it was never attributed to him. Does that make sense?

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albania · 25/04/2011 22:36

I think if this child's mother is a MNer, this thread might make her see what the school are trying to say.

LeninGregg · 25/04/2011 22:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsGravy · 25/04/2011 22:40

Hm, yes, that does sound more complex. With my niece and nephew they are always much better behaved one on one (they are part of a big family and always vying for attention) so it does seem to be about getting attention.

LeninGregg's reply makes a lot of sense.

Original poster

Gwinkofchocolate · 25/04/2011 22:40

That's interesting Lenin.

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