I've run out of ideas - any parents of 4/5yo around who can give me hope?

[maxpower]

DD is 4.9yo and we have a DS who's 4mo. For at least the last year, DD has woekn up any time from 5am onwards and persists in waking DH and I up, anything up to 4 times before her alarm goes off (at 7am). We've begged, pleaded, reasoned, threatened, shouted, in an effort to get her to stop waking us up, but nothing works. We've taken away priviledges, cancelled outings or fun things we've got planned as punishment to no avail. We've tried earlier bedtimes, later bedtimes, nothing. As a result, every morning starts off with everyone in a bad mood and DD often crying. She's exhausted all the time because she's not getting enough sleep. During the day she's doing the exact opposite of what she's told. If I ask her to do something, I get 'why?' as a response, even when I'm telling her to do something for her own safety (eg there's a car coming so I tell her to move out the way).

It's driving DH and I mad. She can be the kindest, sweetest, best behaved girl in the world and to everyone outside our household, she is. But with DH and I she's cantankerous beyond belief. She's driven me to tears on more than one occasion. She's currently in time out in her bedroom and she's kicking at the floor.

Has anyone else been through this? Is it a phase or are we destined for the rest of her childhood to be like this? I'm worried about the fact that as DS is so tiny (and therefore behaves), it looks to her like I'm playing favourites, which I'm really not. But by the same token, I'm standing firm with her to try to tackle her behaiour, then I'm all smiles and cuddles with DS. It's got to be confusing for her but I don't know how else to manage the situation. I can't very well ignore DS. We've spent a lot of time reassuring her in terms of DS's arrival - we tell her that we love her and both of us make time to do things with her 1:1. Any ideas?

I would say it is a phase - and I completely sympathise!! I could have described DS1 (who's 5 in August) with the cantankerous behaviour, the outbursts, the kicking, shouting, early waking.

I have no idea, but really do sympathise. And really hope it is a phase!!

What time does she go to bed? When you try changing her bedtime do you just try for one night or do you put her to bed consistently later for a couple of weeks? It might take a few weeks to adjust.

I have a ds about that age and if he wakes up early (which is before seven, for us) I send him to watch tv (actually have been handing dcs ipad in the morning, lately). Would that not work for you?

Or how about a star chart with an incentive?

It sounds awful for you - hope something works.

I would have a short period when it isn't an issue- just cope as best you can- and then make a new plan/strategy in regard to changing the behaviour.

At this age I think it works best if you can get them on board. When you are all calm talk for a short time clearly about how she needs to stay in bed until 7, why (so she has lots of energy for the day!), and what she should do if she wakes early- go back to sleep/look at books in her room etc.

My guess is that it's become a habit and probably with all the different strategies to try to change it it's been given a lot of attention that has done the opposite and ingrained it rather than got rid of it.

So how to deal with the behaviour... hmmmmm... well if the calm chat doesn't work- it sometimes does re changing DS's behaviour (!) I guess you're into super-nanny territory but at the opposite end of the day- eg first time she wakes you you say "it's night time still, go back to sleep", get her back to her room, exit. Second time "it's night time"- get her back to room, third time say nothing just back to room and any other times nothing. This deals with the behaviour but doesn't give it attention.

I haven't actually done this as have been lucky with DS who will wake/call out before 7 sometimes but a quick reminder that it's not time to get up will keep him in his room until 7.

You could go the telly or Ipad route, but that depends on what you're happy with her doing everyday.

Re sibling rivalry- I think it takes quite a while for them to adjust whatever you do, it's normal- and it keeps rearing it's head throughout their childhood. Doesn't mean that they should wake you up at 5am though!!!

Good luck, maybe some others have more first hand experience and good tips!

Hi - I know you have an alarm clock but with my DS with a similar issue the bunny clock worked well - bunny asleep stay in bed, bunny awake can get up - www.jojomamanbebe.co.uk/sp+Kidsleep-Clocks+A6802 - I set it 5 mins later or so every few days or so -
and I always think that if it has a 6 in the time then its ok to get up -so maybe 7 is just too late -and TV downstair on own can work well - or we sometimes say he doesn't have to stay in bed but can play in his room

doesn't sound like a sibliing problem as its been going on before then - and my DS did go through a very stroppy stage at about the same age as well -
we have about the same age gap and it was hard - just tried to give positive attention when he was being nice - and also making use of any time baby was awake

Is there something specific waking her up at 5am - birds? Light? Maybe blackout blinds or something else practical could help?

I agree with crw1234 that maybe expecting her to stay in bed until 7am is too much for her - but then my 2 have always been up by about 6.30am. I do agree though that 5am is too early!

I would continue with a very consistent bed time routine, with bedtime around 7pm. Continue with the 1:1 activities and reassurance about her new sibling as maybe when she wakes early she is feeling a little bit insecure and just wants to come and find you. Alternatively maybe she is just an early waker, and rather than have all this stress and tension first thing in the morning you could just take it in turns to get up with her and spend 1:1 time with her then, albeit a bit early!

FWIW dd2 (3.7) was always a bit of a rubbish sleeper who woke in the night, and early in the morning, just for reassurance that someone was there. The thing that did the trick for her was putting her in the same room as her older sister. They both slept far better with company. Maybe when your ds is a bit older this might help you too?

Also is she at school yet? If so she may be completely exhausted from reception, and benefit from a regular earlier bedtime. If not, you may find that once she starts, she will be more tired and her sleep will improve anyway. Either way, hope you find a solution.

thanks for all your replies, sorry to take so long to respond!

We actually wouldn't object if she was getting up at say 6.30am every morning, but I think a culmination of her bad behaviour during the day and how tired she is has turned this into a bit of a battleground for all of us!

Re the alarm - we've tried all sorts to keep her in her room, none of them have worked. Star charts seem to have no affect either. We don't expect her to stay in her bed if she wakes up - we've told her she can play, read, colour - we've just asked that she stay in her room. We probably calmly talk with her about this at least once a day and the benefit to her of getting more rest/sleep.

We can't work the alternating getting up early with her as DH is a paramedic who works shifts so he's not always around at the time she wakes up. It's also a problem when he has an early shift (which can start at 6am) as he's up at 5am and DD therefore wants to get up - totally understandable, but he then leaves and I'm left trying to persuade her to go back to bed and deal with the battles that ensue.

Whenever we've changed her bedtime we've kept it the same for a few months at a time, but with no positive effect. She started school in January - her bedtime is now 6.30pm (stories until about 7pm). We can't make it any earlier because when I go back to work, I won't be home until 6pm.

I'm convinced that the behaviour is down to her being tired - she is completely exhausted, but if you catch her yawning or suggest to her that she's tired, she gets really defensive. I'm not sure why as we don't force her to sleep during the day or send her to her room if she is; we might suggest she have a lay down on the sofa but we're there with her.

Tgger you may be on to something with the focus the waking up has got. I'll have a good think about that one and what we could do.

You have my sympathies. DS1 went through an early waking phase when DS2 was born - and for a few months afterwards. He was 2.11 to 3.4 years old then. We reassured him that we still really loved him, I made an effort to spend plenty of quality time with just him during the day, and introduced a bunny clock and explained that he had to stay in his room and not call for us (unless he felt poorly) until the bunny woke up at 6.10 - his early waking was mostly related to new sibling insecurity plus spring time coming round. Blackout blinds helped alot to to get him to bed earlier - as did (ironically) letting him have a short nap during the day (or some quiet time in his room) so he wasnt overtired.

Can sympathise! DD is 4 and the light mornings have caused her to be awake earlier and foul during the day! Today has been an epic tantrum day: I'm sure it is because she is tired and looks like the living dead by lunch time but will not go for a nap.

As I know she is going to wake when it's getting light, all i can do is push her bedtime back a bit to try and let her grab a bit more sleep, and as far as her having a major strop goes, just use distraction if you can grit your teeth and do it ratherthan getting cross: major wobbler diverted this afternon by going to the library!

It is a nightmare though, isn't it? I ended up arguing with dh when he sounded exasperated and said dd was 'mental' (not in front of her) and I told him to get use to it, she was 4, tired and pushing her boundaries, distract or discipline, whatever's more appropriate. Christ, it's the dh i could swing for, not the dcs!

What time does she go to bed? Would it be worthwhile letting her go to bed a little later to see if that influences what time she wakes up? Also, are the curtains thick enough to keep the light out? It could also be that she needs to wee and that that wakes her, if that is the case you may want to take her to the bathroom when you go to bed so she can sleep without having to go for a reasonable time. Would it help to let her sleep in your bed with you once she has woken up?

maxpower, snap!

dd was 5 last week and wakes early. She will stay in bed just about but boy, it's a battle. But similar answering back/argumentative/stroppiness and seems so out of character. We have a 3mth old too (and a nearly 3yr old - she is fighting more with him too).

We are trying to be more positive, ignoring things that don't matter etc. seems to work. She used to go to bed reeeeeally early which worked better as she wasn't so tired during day, but light changing has thrown it a bit.

Anyway, sounds like they are more thrown than we think re new baby. Dd's refrain is 'it's not FAIR'. Sigh.

maybe we can hold eeach other's hands and pray it's a phase

Ds1 is like this in some respects. He has always woken between 5 and 6. He has a c lock and is allowed to get up at 6, but is expected to play in his room ( where all his favourite toys are found). Dh gets up at 6 on weekdays and so ds gets to see him fwiw, I I think if your dd knows dp is going out, she's bound to want to see him. Could she go donwstairs with him, have her mroning drink and then play alone?
We have blackout blinds and curtains and even in the depths of winter, ds1 will be awake befor 6. The only thing I have found to make any difference is calorie intake. We stoke him up in the evening with plenty of carbs and then he has at least 2 cups of bedtiime milk (full fat) which I often "fortify" with cream. (And he's on the small side, 50th centile height, 9 to 25th weight).
The arrival of a sibling is bound to upset the dynamic too. Do you think dd sees this as time she might get just for her? Or is baby up and being fed and she feels left out?

Ah yes, we are not allowed to mention the "tired" word here either!

When DS (4.5) gets really tired his behaviour becomes HORRIBLE. Best thing then is to go out in the car somewhere as he will fall asleep. Even if it's for a short time he will generally then be better, his brain will have reset. A year ago we could get him to nap when he was that tired in the day. Now, no chance!

They absolutely hate it being pointed out that they are tired don't they! Can see the problem with your husband having to get up early and then your daughter wanting to join in the action so to speak.

If you've talked about the getting up thing a lot, maybe stop talking about it and change how you behave when it happens- this will catch her out!!! Perhaps it can be as simple as taking the attention away from it and then she will stop doing it.. y'never know

thanks for all your sympathies - nice to know we're not alone! She has blackout curtains in he room which do keep the room dark enough for sleep (ie you have to turn a light on to do anything when they are closed). However, I don't think it's the light or the baby as she was doing this all through the winter and long before we even knew DS was on the way! She does it whether or not DH is getting up. DS will happily sleep until 8am (or later) so it's not that we're up and engaged with him, thereby leaving her 'out'. Her bedtime is 6.30 (lights out at 7). We've tried later bedtimes, but she still gets up early and is just more tired as a result. I can't make her bedtime any earlier as I don't get in from work until 6pm when I'm working.

I really, really don't mind her getting up so early, if only she'd just entertain herself quietly. She can do it, because she's managed it on odd occasions, when DH & I have praised her to the hilt for it to try to encourage her. Part of the whole problem is that she wakes DH & I up so we're more tired than we already are and I know that I have far less patience to deal with her behaviour during the day as a result. It's a vicious circle.

she's back at school today after the hols so I'm mentally trying to draw a line and see if we can make a fresh start. I think there's defintiely something in changing how we respond, but I'm not sure what's best to do. I've always believed that consistency is important so if we suddenly let her wake everyone up whenever she wants, will that confuse her and possibly undermine other areas of expected behaviour? (eg M&D have told me off for a year+ but if I just carry on I get my own way in the end?) Say she gets up at 5am and DH or I get up with her, I'm worried she'll think it's become acceptable.

Oh and letting her into our bed in the morning is a disaster - she kicks, elbows, headbutts us (unintentionally) can't stay still for love nor money and keeps talking to us until we give in and get up.