3 year old speech (long)

[roadkillbunny]

My ds turned 3 last month. He has about 20 - 30 words although only about 8 are clear enough for someone who didn't know him to understand and he is only just starting to put two words together on occasion and when he does the results are very unclear. He has good comprehension when paying attention, he started pre-school in January and since then he has been making more of an effort however only small improvements as in he will now have a bash at saying words although when he does he kind of misses off the end part of the word and kind of imitates the rhythm without any of the individual sounds that make the word (if that makes sense, it is really hard to explain), he babbles a great deal and copy's the rhythm of speech but lacks definition to words.

He is my second child, dd (6 in May) has speech problems but hers are altogether different, she was very late to talk, she started pre-school at 2 years 11 months with about 30 words but within a half term she had a massive speech explosion and was talking in sentences although her speech was very unclear, it was a very bumpy road dealing with her speech issues but this is not her story so to cut a long and sorry story down she had a complete tongue tie, hugely over sized tonsils and adenoids. Ds does not have the same issues (well I can't be sure 100% about the tonsils and adenoids but he does not have the same symptoms and has never had a throat infection) and the issues with his speech are different from hers however having gone through SALT with dd I am aware of how they operate and for this reason have not asked for a formal SALT referral for ds yet (he has done a playing with sounds SALT course run by a SALT involved with a children's centre), with dd they just assessed her and sent me away for 6 month at a time with common sense advice. The history I have with the SALT team that would be the normal referral in regards to their failing my dd in a big way mean that I am very reluctant to take ds to them, I would however be happy with the area team that treat her now she is at school and have seen ds in an informal setting, I feel I would have a fight to get referred to them though but I am up for that battle.

I have made an appointment for ds to see our GP a week Wednesday as i keep finding myself wondering about his hearing. He can defiantly hear and passed his newborn hearing test however he has the muckiest years I have ever seen, dd had mucky ears as a baby but 'grew out of it' by the time she was 2 where as ds still has rivers of ear gunk. All children of his age and younger (and older!) can sufferer from 'selective hearing' so it is trying to separate out the normal from maybe there being something going on. Ds's volume is very loud, he wants to sit right in front of the TV when the volume is not blaring and I think it is a good job I still love his name as it seems to be all I am saying trying to get his attention! The two children share a room and dd will often spend time reading aloud (but quietly) on the top bunk at bedtime but this has never ever stopped ds from going to sleep however, all that said he loves music with all his heart and where other things will fail miserably to get his attention music will grab him the vast majority of the time.

I was wondering if anyone had experience of anything like this.
Am I being misguided in wondering about his hearing and planning to ask the doctor for it to be checked?
Are my experiences with my dd colouring my responses to ds problems in a negative way? (this post is long enough and dd's story would treble it, if you want to know search in my posting history for embarrassing bodies, kids).
Has anybody got any opinions about all this they can share with me?
Thanks!

getting a hearing test done is a bogstandard check for any sort of suspect speech/language problem so it's v. sensible for you to ask the doc for an audiology referral. I'd speak to pre-school just before you go to the GP, as they may have useful feedback as to how he's getting on behaviourally/socially, his general development etc. In terms of the referral, given waiting lists I would ask for a referral ASAP, to at least get on the waiting list, then when you find out who's seeing your DS and timescale you can start thinking about whether you have a fight on your hands. You might want to look for information about speech sounds/verbal dyspraxia, see if any of that rings a bell (not hinting anything btw I have no idea whether this may be an issue or not).

Thanks, I have a great relationship with pre-school and have been in constant communication with them in regards to ds, before he started them and I decided to give him a term of pre-school before looking to make a formal SALT referral as in their experiences and mine with dd that first term in pre-school can bring a massive language explosion. Easter holidays are now here and although we all agree he has made a very small amount of progress it is really not that much at all and also he is having behaviour issues that a massive part of are about his lack of language, he is an effective communicator non verbally so has no trouble getting his needs met but his relationship with other children is hugely impacted, we have had quite a few minor incidents and one major incident. Pre-school have been fantastic in helping him and us deal with this but there are elements that make me sad for him, for example other children cottoned on very quickly that ds was getting in a bit of trouble for aggressive behaviour and he became the pattsy, and an easy one he made as he can't tell his side of a story or defend himself, something the other children, as children of this age do clocked very quickly and used to their advantage, I say again that pre-school have been fantastic, noticed this was happening within a less then 2 days and while still working with ds on managing his frustration also working with the other children on being kind and explaining about ds not having the words, the intervention of the staff put an end very quickly to that and ds is now working better with other children but their will always been problems and I envision their being quite a few when they go back after the disruption of the holidays.

I know how long the waiting times for SALT referral are and this has been at the back of my mind, it took well over 6 months from referral to first assessment for dd but if I am absolutely honest with myself I haven't done it yet out of denial that there really is more of a problem with ds's speech then just him being a boy/lazy/a second child/just taking his time (delete as appropriate for denial tactic of the day) I wanted to give him the chance to start and settle in at pre-school in the hope that was the catalyst he needed unfortunately it seems that is not the case so it is time to take my head out of the sand. If I stick to my guns about him not being under the same SALT as dd was for early years I need to have that battle at point of referral, we are rural and between a small town and a city, my GP is based in the town and they refer to the SALT team that dd was under that is based in that town, however the children's centre that runs out reach to our village is on the edge of the city and it is the SALT team from that part of the city that he has been seen by informally and it is also the area team that come and work in our village school with dd, they are the team I want for ds.

I can't say that is dd had been under this other team anything would have been different, it was a complex series of events (or non events) however that history does not give a great working practice between them and I, I simply don't trust them, even though ds and dd both have speech issues the issues are not the same at all and I have so much more experience of the SALT system then I did going in with dd if there were no other choice I could manage to get through it for the sake of ds but as there is another option, an option I have worked with over the past year and had a much more positive experience with I would want to go down that route but the referral would have to be made direct to the team I want so if a battle is needed it is one I would need to fight now, I have cards up my sleeve for the one thanks to the support of the children's centre rural support worker!

Thanks for the info on the names of some of the speech disorders, gives me something to look at, I have very little idea of the names of speech disorders for doing research as dd's problems where first never properly looked into and then when I took it into my own hands quickly found to be rooted in physical course so all info is good info, I would be really grateful of any more! (sorry for another long one!)

off to work shortly, so not much time to reply. glad to hear that the SALTs you like deal with CC so with under 5s as well, rather than just school age.

A couple of useful books - Parent's Guide to Speech and Language Problems by Debbie Feit (should be in library)

It Takes Two to Talk or You make the Difference by Ayola Manolson (unlikely to be in library, try winslow catalogue or www.hanen.org), ITT is dear but well worth the money IME.

websites - www.ican.org.uk, www.teachmetotalk.com, www.hanen.org
for googling re:speech disorders - Caroline Bowen or Nancy Kaufmann

Just a little update on this, took him to the doctor last Wednesday and told him that I felt it would be worth while getting his hearing checked and that pre-school and I both feel it is time to do an official speech therapy referral.

Doctor was great (so glad our old doctor finally retired, ohh how he played his part in failing dd!), agreed to do separate referrals for hearing and speech although he thought SALT would be the ones to do that, told him that when I cornered dd's SALT team about them failing to do as much as look in her mouth (if they had they would have seen the complete tongue tie she turned out to have) they turned round and told me that it was a GP's job to do that kind of thing, doctors was a little shocked by this and said he would cover bases and refer for hearing test.

We chatted about where ds is with his speech and I said I knew it would take a while and we had waited 7 months to get dd her first SALT appointment to which he said, and I quote 'NO! no, no, no, no, at his age with these issues there is no way he can wait so long, lets see, if you haven't heard anything by mid June call me and I will sort it out, that gives them 6 weeks and that is plenty long enough' I think I love our new GP (and he is kind of hot to !)

I haven't had a chat with ds's key person at pre-school yet but I was chatting to one of the other staff members today walking home (small village lol!) and happened to mention the hearing thing and she said she had thought the same about him, that while he can hear that it seems he isn't hearing clearly or the same way as we do. I will chat with his key worker tomorrow but I feel a little more validated by somebody else who spends quite a bit of time with him has had similar thoughts, talked to my Mum tonight and she highlighted things like he turns your head to 'talk' in your ear, he wants to have full eye contact when you are talking to him, gets real close to your face and if you are for example laying on the floor with him playing side by side he doesn't respond/understand unless you have full eye contact.

It sound a bit mad to say all this has made me feel better, that others have noted these little things, I don't want my son to have hearing problems but at the same time if he does we will work through it, he would still be the same little boy he was before we would just have more information about him. I feel frustrated right now because I am doing my best to help him learn to communicate verbally but until I have all the information about what may or may not be going on with him I can't offer him the right support, I feel like I am working in the dark with him, fumbling through and making a hash of it all :(

sorry, not so little, just so much 'stuff' going through my head, I hope it doesn't come out like I am wishing my son to have hearing problems I just want to know so I can give him the best support and help, he is so frustrated, he is a bright enough ,dboy, he knows all his numbers, most of the alphabet, loads of phonic sounds but he can't verbalise any of this stuff, I can't imagine how hard it is for him :(