Misbehaving at Nursery - HELP!!!!!!!!!

[Toasty]

I am at the end of my tether for want of a better phrase my ds's behaviour at nursery is becoming unacceptable. Last night I got a letter saying if he behaviouir continues he will be excluded from nursery. My dp earns peanuts and really dont want to go down the Income Support route. He is lashing out at other children/staff when he does not get his own way and shouts/sometimes swears and has taken to throwing things around the room at lunchtime (cutlery mainly which is obviously dangerous). He does have tantrums at home but nothing like this and I have now gotten to the point where I feel guilty for even taking him there I feel sorry for the staff. Dont get me wrong he is not like this 100% of the time every single day and perhaps yesterday's letter was a result of the staff having a really bad day with the kids but I feel ashamed, guilty and really dont know what I can do to help the situation. I try to stay calm with him and talk firmly rather than losing my cool but we all know how difficult that can be at times. If there is anyone out there who has had similar problems or has worked in a nursery environment I would be very grateful for advice I can try and use at home and also to try to give some input to the nursery staff as they have asked if I can think of anything that might improve the situation.

Poor you, Toasty! It's really hard to be told that our kids aren't doing so well, I think.
Would it help if you took a couple of days off and went into nursery with him so you could see exactly where the problem lies and how the staff are trying to deal with it? Perhaps you could model some of the strategies you use at home so that the staff could follow your lead?
Also you might need to check that he is in the right environment- sometimes it is the nursery that has the "problem" rather than the child. Does he need more structure than the nursery offers, or is it too strict for him? Is his keyworker supportive and friendly towards him? What about the other staff? Does he seem to feel comfortable and secure while he's there? I know that child care options are sometimes limited by postcode and family finances but if there are several choices in your area would it be worth looking at some other settings?
If you don't think the nursery itself is the problem maybe you could seek some expert advice. Could your GP or health visitor advise you about his behaviour? Also why don't you post a question to Jan Parker on the "Ask the Experts- Parenting" section of Mumsnet? Her advice is usually great. The "Ask the Experts- Education" woman is good too, though I forget her name.
It's also worth remembering- if you can!- that this is almost certainly a phase that will one day be a distant memory.

Dear Toasty
My SIL had a similar problem with her dd at her nursery earlier on this year. Her dd's behaviour was pretty bad, and there was a lot of biting going on. Turns out that the nursery mixed all the older and younger kids together, and she was picking up bad behaviour from that. She'd also (at the age of 22 months) got a new brother, so obviously she was jealous etc. The nursery told my SIL that they couldn't handle her dd because there were obviously "problems at home"!!
My SIL's response was to take dd out of the nursery and swap to another. In hindsight, a nursery that can't handle children who are being naughty, shouldn't be able to operate!
You don't say what age your son is, but from what you say, it sounds like "one of those phases" that he's going through.
Hope that what I've said helps... I think Srcummymummy's advice is good. Most HV's have contact with nurseries in some form or other, and yours may be able to help or offer you an alternative nursery to try.
Good Luck!

Toasty, not sure from your message whether the problems are happening before lunch or after. Could it possibly be something that he is eating there that is affecting him E numbers/juice or something you don't give him at home? Or is he very hungry when it happens. My sons behaviour is noticably worse when he is hungry. Just a thought...

Sorry - my ds is 4 in November and is the last class ie. he is one of the oldest. He seems to be problems mid day to afternoon I would say but not totally restricted to this time. I live in South East London and the nursery attends is in fact the only in the area although I have heard that there is private one setting up in the area but as he has been there since he was 9 months I am loathe to change him at this stage - he starts school next September and am obviously worried that his behaviour will carry on into school and it may cause even more problems. A private nursery is not really financially viable either this nursery is a community nursery so therefore the fees are reasonable. I have asked that he does not get given juice/sweets/crisps etc although I am pretty sure that this is not always adhered to. I know one of the problems with one member of staff is that he acts like he is in love with her for want of another expression and she unfortunately is the staff member who will be end up being bitten!!!

Hmmmmm....I would have to disagree that nurseries should be able to handle all children's behaviour. I operate two children's nurseries. I have also been a teacher. As a teacher, if there were children were severe behavioural problems, a specialist would be called into help. The same should be true at nursery. There are services that the local council can provide to the nursery to help.

We recently had a child with similar behaviour to yours at one of the nurseries. I feel confident to say that the problems stemmed from some serious home problems that the child was experiencing. We tried to work with the parents to help the child, called in outside specialists, etc. However, in the end, we had to consider the safety of the other children, as they were regularly going home injured from this child. The staff were also being injured. (You wouldn't believe that a 4 year old could do so much damage). As a nursery, we were in a difficult position. We wanted to do everything we could to help this child, but not to the point of risking others. SO we asked the parents to reduce the number of sessions that this child attended while we worked togther to help her behaviour. Unfortuanetly, they were not willing to do this so they withdrew her.

I would agree with what others have said though about being sure that it is not problems being caused at the nursery. It could be really simple things. Find out at what times of day the behavious usually occurs.....it could be linked to a specific change in activities, tiredness, hunger, etc. Also, have their been staffing changes recently? i am not blaming the nursery if there has been as high staff turnover is a fact of nursery life. However, this could be a disruppting factor.

As far as how to move forward, it is vital that you work with the nursery. Ask them what methods they are using...what is their behavioural procedure. You can then try to do the same thing at home for consistency. I am not saying it will be easy, but there are often ways to make it work. Also, ask them to get the local Special Needs Advisor to come and obsereve your child at the nursery. They wil often have good stategies to use.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your comments everyone. Bloom there have been a lot of staff changes recently and he has actually only been in his current room at nursery for 3 weeks now. In his new class there are two children that have been described to me as having severe behavioural problems and one my theories is that my ds appears to be copying them or maybe is afraid of them and wants to just be liked by them. A special needs teacher was called into the nursery to observe one of these children in particular as the child in question is very strong and has actually injured a staff member. When I talk to the staff they assure me that my ds' behaviour is no where near as serious as these two children and as his behaviour at home is so different or when he is left with family I tend to think that if I start calling in specialist agencies now to solve this he will also become labelled a "problem child". The staff and I are now working together i.e I felt that there was a lack of communication between staff and myself over my child's behaviour and this letter came out of the blue and now he has a report like book that catalogues incidents of good and bad behaviour so at least I know whats going on. They have talked to me about the strategies suggested by the special needs visitor that observed another child and they try to incorporate these strategies when other children are misbehaving. Sorry for rambling on but as you do work in a nursey its interesting to hear what you have to say on this.

He's been there since 9 months and now he is suddenly mis behaving? Has something changed there, maybe a routine or something?

I had a friend whose son started acting up because his key worker went off on maternity leave. Which she is legally entitled to do so, but it caused grief for the children. It made them unsettled. Then again, some kids are fine with having a number of people around; despite what the experts say, not every single child does get attached to just one person, so a change may not affect behaviour.

I don't know why I bother coming if everything I say gets deleted for no reason!

I apologised for replying to something and then realising what I had asked had already been explained, and I mentioned that a 5 year old have attacked a teacher. What's wrong with that?!

Yes I am here. I don't know why my message got taken down.

All I said was "oops, you've already answered what I was asking in my post. Sorry, didn't realise" or something like that, then I mentioned something I read in a newspaper today about a 5 year old head butting a teacher and damaging her mouth! And that's offensive??!!

Sometime today. It could just be a technical problem but 2 messages gone?! I don't know.

Are you sure you're being censored JBR?! I didn't think they did that sort of thing on here. If you really think you are we could start a "Free the JBR 1" campaign...

Most of the people on here want me locked up LOL! It could have been a mistake. Feeling depressed today - (in the clinical sense; I only work now and then which doesn't help!) so I am taking feeling fragile and perhaps took it wrong!

We shall see there is bound to be an "official" response about why my post wasn't up!

Thanks everyone!

I was on the dole and that was all I could get! I just wanted to get off the dole; I have holes in my CV like Swiss cheese LOL! It is £7200 for working 24 days a year on trains. The money is for the inconvience of travelling around the country for hours on end and at funny hours.

It is just until I get something better. I never said every mother should work full time, I just said what's the "dilemma" about whether we should or not when dads don't have this qualm. If I ever found another partner we would have to see what happens. But as it stands I have £60 to myself after everything is paid out and with a man going halfers on everything I'd probably have a bit more. I do want something else, more in my line and if I found something I wanted the hours wouldn't deter me; I'm not going for something full time for the sake of just having a full time job.

As for the missing messages, you are probably right. I did say I probably over reacted, not being very well and all. Of course, having depression puts employers off as well so it really is a case of take what I can get.

Come to this board a bit late, but felt the urge to post..

Jbr Hope you get this message deletion problem sorted out. For your information, when I'm not at my trusty computer and have to use an imposter, I, too, can find it difficult to post messages. Additionally, I don't think that my messages via 'contact us' or the notice board have ever got through - a dodgy link somewhere? I don't know. If you find out the cause, please tell me.

Toasty, in reply to your message I just have to say that my first reaction was one of anger that your son's nursery: 1. Told you about his behavior, and, 2.Threatened to remove him from nursery, without warning, BY LETTER. Surely they should talk to you about this, even by phone? If this is how they tackle things, no wonder they have 'problems' with their children. End of rant.

Anyway being more postive, I think Bloom has given you some excellent advice.

As a fellow SE Londoner with 2 sons who have gone through a variety of local childminders, state and college nurseries and primary schools, I can say this: the style of care, if not the quality, does vary a lot. There are so many factors that are going to influence your son's behaviour, from the amount of runaround space to the personalities of his classmates. I would never go as far as to heap blame on your nursery for your child's behaviour, but IMO there's every reason to see it as a passing phase.

Do get any help you feel you need, and, most importanty keep the lines of communication open between you and the nursery. Ask them before they tell you.

I see your son is four, so he'll starting school soon. One word of advice - if your nursery suggests a suitable school for your son, don't let this determine your final decision. My oldest son left his local primary at 5 years to go to one nearer our new home. I was guided by his head teacher's recommendtions, despite visiting a variety of schools. In hindsight I should have trusted my own judgement a little more.

Good luck.

Hi Jbr - I'm afraid I've only just seen this thread, so apologies for not responding sooner. Just to reassure you - and everyone - that we are NOT censoring you. We have never actually deleted a message except at the request of the person who posted it. That's not to say we wouldn't, of course, were something offensive or dangerous posted but we would always tell you if we removed a message.
Hope this puts your mind at rest and you manage to sort your tech problems.
Justine, Carrie and Rachel.

OK!

Anyway, to point out what I was saying again, there was an article in the local paper about a teacher who had been head butted by a 5 year old and she had a cut lip because of it. I wonder how such children behave at home?

Mine ds who is the one with the problem at nursery does not behave any where as badly at home as he does at Nursery in fact when they say he has been uncontrollable I sometimes find it hard to imagine although I do not doubt what they say and I know that people perceive behaviour in different ways but on the whole he is has the normal tantrums - chucks a paddy when I explain that cakes for breakfast is not going to happen - I just hope this phase is a short one because the dread I feel every night when walking to Nursery is making me feel quite sick!!

Sounds "normal" to an extent. If he is head butting teachers when he's 5 I would be more worried!

Toasty
I just wondered how this all turned out in the end? Even though it was many moons ago now!
Only because I am having the exact same issue with my almost 4 year old

Me too !!

Don't want to resurrect a zombie thread, but we are having the exact same issue with our son. A happy, confident and loving child at home -- who hates nursery and is not making any friends. Hits other kids and staff alike. What was the outcome of your situation?