Why do my two boys fight and what can I do - help please

[twosofar]

I am at the end of my tether and am writing this crying (again). My two little boys have just turned 5 and 3.6 respectively and while they get on most of the time, they just seem to be fighting more and more. DS1 (S) winds up his younger brother (W) a lot and then W responds by throwing a heavy toy at him, walloping him round the head or worst of all scratching his face - he has done it twice so badly that S has two ugly red scars which are unlikely to go. S often kicks or hits W as well. When things kick off they are both really violent and aggressive and I can see that they just can't control themselves...the red mist descends and that is it. They certainly don't see any violence at home so I can't understand where this behavious comes from. It's really quite alarming to watch..they just go for each other like two dogs.

It's making my life a misery because whenever I leave them in the same room for 5 minutes, sooner or later I hear a scream and someone has hit someone else because they are fighting over a toy/what to watch on TV...they fight over anything at all to be honest.

They are just out of control. I can't seem to punish them adequately..they don't respect me and completely ignore me. I'm clearly not strict enough with them. Tonight I have sent them to bed early with no story as a punishment for throwing water out of the bath and soaking the floor and for making a huge mess with dried cereal (because they were fighting of course...) I came downstairs as I need to do a couple of hours work on the lap top and after less than 5 minutes I hear noises and a massive scream. W has got out of his bed, gone into S's room, they have ended up in a fight and S has had his face gouged again by W. I am so upset a) because his lovely little face is a bloody mess and it's such a shame and b) because I have no idea why they are doing this. They are only 18 months apart and very competitive but I truly am at my wits end. I can't even send them to bed without trouble

Please please can anybody offer any advice, I can't deal with it anymore

Thanks

I will be watching this thread with interest. I have 2 boys also 18 months apart. THey are a little younger but they really have started fighting more recently. It's horrible to watch. I just have a zero tolerance attitude to it really.
When DS1 came home from school today, war broke out and he was in his room more often than he was downstairs. Finally he was sent to his room to go to bed early as his behaviour was just completely out of control.

I would say try to be really consistent. If you see an argument/fight brewing maybe intervene before they get very angry at one another.

Or else, after a fight, could you maybe discuss how they could have handled it better? Show them how to take turns with toys, use an alarm and they can have 5 mins each with the toy etc?

I try various things really but I don't let them hurt one another. I was hurt a LOT by siblings and my parents sort of ignored it. I can understand why as there were so many of us, but I will never forget the hurt and pain I felt from the fights I had with my brothers especially. THey were vicious!
I won't ever let that happen in this house.

Best of luck!

I don't want to let them hurt each other but the problem is I just can't be with them all the time. I work 4 days a week, which the elder one hates but there's nothing I can do about that. They are separated during the day as one is at school and the other at nursery and I have been assured that neither of them behave violently towards other children or are in any way badly behaved. On a Monday I am able to leave work early so I can do the school run, but I then need to work a few hours when I get home to make up for it. If I am sitting in the kitchen working and they are in the playroom then guaranteed within minutes they will kick off.

They are spoilt. They have a playroom loads of toys, a big garden and their own TV so they can watch DVD's etc so you'd think they wouldn't have anything to fight about but they will literally argue over who has a turn with this, who can play with that, what they watch, where they sit. You name it they will argue over it and if I am not in the room, the argument will more than likely develop into one attaking the other. I can't be in the room with them all the time. This is the problem. I shouldn't have to supervise them 100% of the time in case a fight breaks out. I just don't understand why they hurt each other so much. They have so little understanding of consequence I am seriously concerned that one of them will really hurt the other one without realising what he's doing.

S had his birthday last week and we had to hold some presents back as his behaviour to his after school nanny had been so horrendous (he has struggled with me going back to work last year and wants me around more, but the nanny only has them 2.5h three times a week until I get home) but he clearly hasn't learnt his lesson, despite promises of changed behaviour

They will have a shock in the morning as I have removed the TV from the playroom and they are not getting it back until things change.

I hate to say it as I love them with all of my heart, but I really don't like them at the moment.

How do you actually make them change their behaviour and stick with it?????

2sofar that sounds like really hard work and I can imagine it gets you down. Something does jump out at me though: would you really leave htem on their own? Maybe that is part of the problem. Do you think they are doing it to look for your attention? Do you work from home 4 days a week, is this what you mean when you say you can't be with them?
I am always with my kids. If I leave the room even to go to the loo, you can be sure they will murder one another.
The only time I'm not with them is if they watch TV in the other room. And then I tell them if I hear any fights the TV goes straight off.
Some days I feel it's a losing battle I'm fighting and I get so so frsutrated with them.
Then they'll have a good day and it's so nice ot see them enjoying each others company. Just wish they could do so more often : )

I work in an office four days a week, just from home on a Monday afternoon so I can do the school run on one extra day other than my day off.

What I mean by the fact I can't be with them all the time, is that I have to cook and do washing in the kitchen, or hang washing out in the garden, or make the beds or such like and invariably they are elsewhere while I do this. I cannot bring them into every room to be with me nor do I do not want to spend all of my time in their playroom but the second they are not supervised, the fighting starts. It's really miserable when I know they behave so well elsewhere :(

We have 2 sons age 9 and 11 now but we had two rules when they were young.

Rule 1: Absolutley no play fighting allowed as it only leads to real fighting.

Rule 2. The first moment we hear any kind of arguement or whining starting we jump on it and separate them for 10 minutes so they are alone. That defuses it instantly before it gets going.

We have friends with two Dss and the older one is routinely spiteful to his brother and the younger brother screasm as soon as he is touched. It is actually attention seeking by both of them and very very wearing.

Zero tolerance. No refereeing who is right or wrong.

Twosofar I really feel for you. I have two boys as well of similar age. Boys do fight, they are physical little creatures and to some extent need that physical release. It's also a very primitive dominance thing.

I take the approach that fighting is the default position and that they have to LEARN not to fight and hurt each other. This way I'm not constantly disappointed iyswim.

Our strategies include:

Play fighting is tolerated but they must accept the consequences, no sympathy from us when it goes too far. I just think its pointless to intervene all the time as they need to learn what the limits are for themselves. Thats not to say we tolerate the fighting, we do intervene, and they hear 'keep your hands and feet to yourself' from me endlessly.

We spend lots of time playing games together as a family. The aim being to show them its fun to be together and play together. This is now paying dividends as they often head off together and get their games out.

Lots of physical play outside and at the park.

We talk lots about loving your brother and taking care of each other. We also encourage them to help each other with little stuff like doing teeth, choosing clothes, getting breakfast stuff out.

Sharing stuff is really important but they also have their own toys. If they want to play on their own they do so in their bedroom.

Tiredness or hunger are definite trigger points so lots of healthy snacks and downtime (tv on and a blanket each, take it in turns to choose the program/dvd).

We've also started letting them have sleep overs in each others rooms which is proving a great incentive to be kind to each other. Torches, dens and snacks...a boys dream.

Overall we try to incentivise the good, cooperative behaviour rather than punish punish punish all the time (which is of course giving attention in itself).

hth

Yes our other rule is lots of physical outdoor play. In fact, once we hear arguements starting they get sent outside to run it off.

We have 3 boys the eldest and middle one have 2 years and 2 months between them - they did fight a little ( i think thats normal) anyway when we seemed to have bad periods I used to split them up one had to be in the room where I was and the other somewhere else -so if I was cooking ds1 might watch tv whilst ds2 played lego in the kitchen etc etc ....we used to play games together to encourage them to play nicely and there were toys they were only allowed if they did play nicely (like monopoly,that was a grown up game but if they sat and played it together (not following normal game rules tho) they could use) it also seemed to help to give the boys 'titles' ds2 was the 'finder' if anything got lost he was the best at finding it (in truth he usually hid it to bother ds1 but giving him that 'title' meant hed usually find it within minutes).

It is hard especially bcos you work and they have all these lovely things yet just want to fight- but thats how it goes I think - it gets better ......eventually .

Some great advice here. The other thing that occurs to me is that, especially the oldest, might be exhausted from not fighting all day. Quite a few youngsters go through a stage where physical fighting is almost a default position. Could you give the eldest twenty mins with you and/ or their father as soon as you get in? Make. It restful and praise anything you possibly can. The youngervwoukd get twenty mins of any DVD he wants as his treat.

I just wonder if some chill time after working so hard at being good all day is needed?

Hi - Just wanted to throw in my 2 pence worth as I have 2 boys aged 5 and 4.

So a few points that may be helpful:

Don't beat yourself up about the fighting - I remember feeling guilty every time one (especially ds2) got hurt because I should have been more vigilant - but its not like I left them for 4 hours while I was in the pub, usually the fighting happened when I was doing something really fun like cooking dinner or having a wee :)

I read Sibling Without Rivalry - which is on the whole a bit sickly-sweet and know-it-all, but I must concede raised some good points which I found helpful. Currently reading Playful Parenting which is excellent.

Give ds1 10-15 mins exclusive time with you after ds2 in bed. This is not a reward for good behaviour. Like your love, this time is unconditional. There are times when the kids have been really horrible to each other and I just want them in bed and out of my sight - but ds1 and I need that time to reconnect, even if it is just a long hug. Just to clarify ds2 also gets this time but his is during the day when ds1 at school - will have to replan the day come September.

Hope that helps.

My 2 DSs are the same age....i do the same as BeenBeta...no playfighting, and zero tolerance to any nastiness, sniping or anything that annoys me really!

DH is more realxed about playfighting than me, but i think that it leads to fighting. If fighting over a toy then said toy goes on top of cupboard for a day (after a warning), same with TV...fighting = TV off, both of them now seem to realise that they do not benefit from fighting/arguing instead they both lose out.

I strated being strict about this a while ago, once ds2 got a bit feistier and they do get on well now most of the time and play together nicely. Obcvioulsy still have the odd moment, but nothing too bad and certainly not the scratching etc that you describe.

Also agree with needing to go outside when they are starting to get lairy. Can you involve them in your jobs...a bit of a PITA but it helps. Also what the other poster says about a more 'adult' thing...my two are allowed to paly with DH's star wars lego as an occaisional treat...v. powerful incentive as they love it!!

My sons are 9 and 7.They fight constantly and can get really vicious with each other too.I frequently have to separate them as I don't think they realise how much they can hurt one another.I must say though it was worse when they were around the same age as your boys,actually when I look back a good few years are slightly hazy in my memory,think I've blocked them out!All of the advice everyone has given seems really good to me,I think It's a matter of continuing as you are.You sound as though you're doing your best and that's all you can do.It gets easier,I promise.Good luck!

I have 2 sons, 12 & 9.

We have always had a zero tolerance to any physical fighting, which works 99.9% of the time but sometimes I'll hear complaints of the odd shove. They squabble, obviously, but don't hurt each other.

I have several friends with 2 boys also, who seem to think it's the natural way for boys to beat the crap out of each other, but I don't agree!

My two can sometimes be complete pitas in some ways, but on the whole they're nice, gentle boys.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Nice to feel that it's not just my children who fight, evern though it feels like that. I think more exercise is definitely important. They behaved really well overe the weekend when the weather was gorgeous and they were in the park/garden all day.

I agree with rewarding good behaviour rather than punishing but at the moment it has got to the point where they really have to realise that they can't just act so viciously and have no consequence so they'll have to earn their TV back with good behaviour.

Just so sick of the sound of my own voice telling them to stop this, don't do that, get off him, don't hit him etc etc. It's all so negative. Need to work on myself being more positive with them, but it's just so awful when I've been at work all day to come into screaming, scrapping children. Probably asking a bit too much as I know half the time they are reacting to me not being around, but i do spend as much time as possible with them when I am at home.

I just feel guilty that it's all my fault :(