How old was your child when they got the idea of saying 'Sorry'?

[LaWeasel]

Wondering if I am expecting too much of DD.

Two and a bit I think. He's 2.5 now and will say it spontaneously both for accidental things (that happened first) and things which were on purpose but he then realises weren't great to do. I've never forced him to say sorry - occasionally prompted it or suggested it e.g. if he hurts someone and I say "Hey, look, you just hurt X. Would you like to say sorry?" and sometimes he does, sometimes not, but he's still learning. I've always just modelled it e.g. if I accidentally bump into him or spill something I say sorry to him and he picked that up quickly. Then I also say sorry for things like if I shout at him and then realise it's me getting wound up and shouting's not helping, then I say sorry for shouting, etc. Or if we have to leave somewhere or if he has to give back a toy he's just snatched I say "I'm sorry but we have to go now/X was playing with that and you must wait your turn/etc"

Recently he's started to come up and hug me when he says sorry as well but I don't know whether this is compassion or something he's picked up from the childminder!

I read something about making children apologise which I agreed with today, let me find it...

Found it :) It's a quote from Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting but it's part of a really good blog post at Analytical Armadillo.

"Now what's going on here? Do parents assume that making children speak this sentence ["I'm sorry"] will magically produce in them the feeling of being sorry, despite all the evidence to the contrary? Or, worse, do they not even care whether the child really is sorry, because sincerity is irrelevant and all that matters is the act of uttering the appropriate words. Compulsory apologies mostly train children to say things they don't mean - that is to lie."

www.analyticalarmadillo.co.uk/2011/03/random-parenting-thought-2-behaviourism.html

I don't imagine myself as an unconditional parent type person.

But DD just is not a parroting child. I can't make her say sorry, and I think I'm going to have to do some reading and find another way. Being confrontational and trying to force her isn't working. And the modelling must work a bit, since she does apologise for some things.

But even if you're not UP I think that particular quote makes sense, logically.

The article is good, BTW, not too UP-ish, it centres around it but I found it really down to earth.

Yeah, just chatting to DP about it offline and I think we generally agree for DD she won't say it because she doesn't mean it and it'll be a while before she does, I imagine.

We're going to focus on her having consequences for behaving badly (so toy taken away if she hits the tv with it, or removed if she hits a kid) and suggest she says sorry, and eventually hopefully the modelling will take effect. If she's been violent and won't apologise I we'll have to be strict on taking her home/making her stay with us instead of playing while she's still learning otherwise or I'll end up a social pariah though!!

I know the Alfie kohn theory- have been good friends with two families whose philosophy it is. I have to say that it takes a long, long, long time for some children to pick it up and it becomes increasingly difficult to see a child hurt your own and them not receive an apology. I really can see the point when they're little, with not saying things they don't mean, but I couldn't follow it through to the logical conclusion when the children are now five and six. If they don't like a gift they don't say thank you, they don't share if they don't feel like it and if halfway through a playdate they've had enough, then we're expected to go. I have sweated over it all and feel much more peaceful now I've decided on the 'say it now, then learn the meaning'. We don't see those guys much, dd finds it really hard when the hurt happens but there's no sorry and tbh I've got pretty fed up with it too.

I do think there's a sort of halfway house on this, maybe? I didn't labour the point with saying sorry with my daughter, because I really didn't see the point of her saying it when she really had no clue why, and clearly didn't want to. But I was always very, very careful to very obviously apologise to HER if I accidentally hurt her, or anything like that. Then, once I thought she might get it, I started to suggest that she might say it. This didn't have to wait until she was five or six, though! She is three and a half now, very much knows why she says sorry, and says it very genuinely when she does.

We socialise children to do all sorts of things that don't come naturally to them and that they don't see the sense of until they are much much older. Where to wee, saying Excuse me before they leave the table, waiting their turn, not clobbering back when they are hurt by a peer (intentionally or accidentally), not eating all the biscuits in the house in one sitting, not playing on the XBox 24/7. I don't see why saying "Sorry" has to be any more sincerely undertaken than the rest of those actions. We're talking about children, often they have to learn form before they are able to learn substance.

Agree ragged. Don't know much about UP, but will have to investigate. I think you need to socialise your child and then they will come to understand why as they grow. Not socialising your child seems a bit cruel really. They do need to fit into the world around them.

I disagree with the sentence from the article that it is just saying the word, I expect my ds (3) to say sorry but he has to mean it also, I won't accept a stroppy SOOORRRYYY as an apology, but then I wouldn't expect him to say sorry for hitting the TV, I just tell him off and it is over, if he hits me or another person though he absolutely must say it and mean it.

But the point for me and my child, is that she won't be forced to say it. After the tv incident I spent 2 hours trying to get her to parrot sorry whether she meant it or not and she just clammed up and became more stubborn.

I am a stubborn so and so, but polite, so if she is the same forcing her to do anything isn't going to work - we have to find another way. There is no way I'g going down a 100% UP route. There will still be consequences if she won't apologise now.

Even if the softly approach doesn't work it seems like the most likely one to work untli she is old enough to be reasoned with that not saying sorry is rude and hurtful and at all ages there will be consequences if she doesn't.

The thing I disagree with in the up idea is that saying sorry is all about the child who's done the wrong. It's also about signalling to the other child that they are aware of their hurt and that steps ate being taken to prevent it happening again. So in some ways I'm not as worried about the wrong doers development-when my child's hurt then I'm looking for her to feel safe again after being hurt and sorry is a signal of that. So when my ds hurt someone at toddler group last week, we both apologised so that the other child could see that we took it seriously and acknowledged her hurt. And so, hopefully, did the other parent.

LaWeasel I think you just have to keep going and if she won't say sorry sometimes, just leave it. Then the next time she needs to say sorry, try and get her to understand why. There is no point being at logger heads with her about it. She will learn in her own time. I remember getting very frustrated with DS1 about the whole 'sorry' issue, but sometimes I had to back off and try again the next time. She's still very young.

Well, that's what I mean about consequences, if we're out and she hits a kid and won't apologise I'll apologise to the parent and child and take her home.

Because I know it's not going to go down with the other parent and child that she won't, and I physically cannot make her apologise at this stage.

It varies.... but it's years and years later that they say it and mean it!!!!
I think we make them say it, and it becomes a knee-jerk reaction...

That's interesting, I hadn't thought much past the toddler years on this particular issue as DS seems to be getting it already. I do always apologise if he doesn't, I think not to would be rude.

WRT not accepting a sarky "SOOOOOORRRRRRYYYY" etc - fair enough, but just because they say it like they mean it doesn't mean they do mean it. Of course this could be the case if they're saying it of their own accord too.

1. Ds is well practised now at 2.9 years!