Help-we need sleep!!

[elephantpoo]

My DS (4.5) has had a sleep problem, on and off, for a while now and it's driving us mad.
He goes through phases, lasting upto a few weeks, followed by a couple of nights respite, then the problem continue :(
He has never had a problem getting to sleep. He goes to bed at 8 and he can literally fall asleep as soon as his head hits the pillow some nights.
He then tends to wake somewhere between 12 and 3 and then has a very restless remainder of the night......sleeping on and off, coming through to our room, or not sleeping at all. The worst night was a couple of weeks ago when he woke at midnight and then didn't go back to sleep until 5am!!
We've let this ride for a bit, hoping it's something he'll grow out of, but we're reaching breaking point now. Also, he started school in January, and I don't want this problem to affect his learning.
So, could it be that he's falling into a deep sleep fairly quickly and then waking as he feels he's slept for longer?
Or maybe he doesn't need as much sleep as I expect him to? DD (8) has always loved her bed, so he's quite a revelation!!
I thought at first it may be cycle that needs breaking, but when he does sleep through it doesn't last :(
Any suggestions greatly recieved, as to why / what we can do about it.

Have you not seen that 'sleep' version of Super Nanny?

Letting it ride, that is your mistake.

He'll grow out of it, that's your mistake.

And, he comes through to our room, that's your mistake.

The sleep therapists find all this is bad example to kids.

They need to be told, by your behaviour that they sleep now, in their beds, and if they get out, you put them back.

The sleep experts kept this rule up for a week and the child fell into a good pattern afterwards.

They warned against mother feeling guilty and joining in with child's upset, I'm being tortured here, protests, and the dad-mum not being on the same page. It looked to me as if mum had no confidence, which had been eroded by I'm a bad mother' and no sleep, and the dad blaming the mum for the child not sleeping. The child bouncing around in the middle of the night running the show. One woman had a breakdown. It's just a child, apply firm but loving enforcement of "that's your bed" "That's my bed". Otherwise it can continue for ever. I do feel for you, but this is just the beginning of many situations where you have to lead as parent, set rules. My daughter is 24 now, and people say "she is so nice and respectful to you". So I know what I'm talking about. Best of Luck. Buy the book.

Ouch. OK. I take on board what you've said, but it can't all be down to our parenting, can it?
I've not heard of this sleep "super nanny"-is it on TV or just a book?
He doesn't bounce around the room.....he will lay in bed "trying to sleep" but it seems to evade him.

It was this parent guide to kids and sleeping, can't remember which channel. It did exactly what you need. These nanny specialists charged £600 a day, but they had techniques.

I think the main way they had such an effect was that the mums could feel reassured when the nanny said, no that "i'm being tortured" crying is scripted by the child.

Yes it is all down to your behaviour. Whether parent or not.

Give him the message. Firmly. This is night. This is sleeping. His trying to go to sleep is that he has no sleep patterns installed. And if you can tell me he is there trying to go to sleep, that is your attention he is getting.
In your bed. It's running mum and dad. Children get jealous of you two in bed together and they aim to divide and rule.
That is the oldest story in the book. But if you let your child think they are running the show, eventually they become insecure children because that is not right. It is they who need you to run the show and tell them what is best for them.

The nanny shows always say do not engage in chat or exchanges at night, all you're doing is waking them up further. Put them back in bed as many times as it takes, both parents on different nights, to show we are both in this together. But no talking. Stay in the room if necessary but continue to put him in his bed. He will develop a sleep pattern from that. Sounds cruel but it is best for everyone. Or go insane.

He's 4.5....not a baby. He knows it's night. He wants to sleep. He had a great sleep routine installed from very early on, until this started happening. Same time every night, good routine, etc.
He gets taken back to bed, by either of us.
I also have a DD (8) who is lovely and has been raised in the same way......just suggests to me that there's something else going on :(

Is he dreaming? Both my DDs (3 & 4) go through episodes of nightmares which then disturb their sleep for consecutive nights - they seem to almost get scared of sleeping because they are expecting the nightmares. They'll go to sleep just fine then rouse themselves from a lighter sleep rather than be relaxed enough to go back fully. Luckily this is generally short-lived and the rest of the time they sleep fantastically so this has never become the same scale of problem that you have. The imagination can do wonderful things to me in the night so I can imagine how this can play out for a 4yr old.

Well that is definitely true. If your method worked for your other child then you have a good method.

Obviously, he knows it's night. That Way. But I mean the behaviour of "we need our sleep". Maybe ask him what is troubling him.

I think it is hard to give the message, "yes, if you need me. No if it is just cause you want company". Can he come in without waking you?

Is it about company or something else?

Maybe it is the only time he gets to cuddle both parents at once.

Teeth?

Maybe say, our 'appointment' for a three people cuddle is Saturday Morning.

That is the hardest thing about kids... Guessing...

Sounds like he could be overtired. My 6 year old still wakes when he's over tired.

The fact that he is asleep so quickly, seems to confirm this.

Try a few nights of early to bed, in my experience, used to take about 3 nights to sort it out.

My 4 month old seems to be going the same way!

That's what I had wondered. He goes out like a light, literally-there one minute, gone the next!
Just concerned that if that isn't the problem he'll be awake longer in the night [hmmm]
Did your 6 yo still wake during those first few early nights?

yes, but it got less and later in the night....

ok....thank you x

Our 3 year old has worked out how to open the stair gates in the house and her 19 month old brother just follows her whenever she does this. I am concerned that she is opening stair gate at the top of the stairs and whilst she is steady enough to walk down her brother isn't. We just have the basic lindam safety gates and I was wondering if anyone has had the same problem and has any tips?

Sorry - just realised I posted this in your thread instead of starting new discussion.

My 9 yr old has always had sleep problems (getting to sleep and staying asleep) and was prescribed melatonin which has worked like magic. Melatonin is the chemical already naturally present which tells the brain it is time to sleep so it's a supplement rather than a sedative and has no side effects. You can get 2 types; short term works well if they have problems getting to sleep and long term helps them get back to sleep if they wake during the night. My son has Aspergers so traditional or super-nanny style parenting didn't work with him (we did try!). Melatonin has made such a difference to our family's lives. I would recommend that if all else fails see your GP.

Bigglesmum......thank you.
It's been getting near to that-it's been going on for about 18 months now :(
Will have one last go at sorting it and then admit defeat!

Yes, try putting him to bed at 7pm- does sound like he's overtired and then when they are overtired it's quite normal to wake and have disturbed sleep, and so the pattern goes on.....

Sleep much better when less tired (amazingly..).

Thank you Tgger. Never had this "not-sleeping" with DD, so this is all new

Sounds like genuine insomnia rather than a behaviour thing. I would agree with the other posters who suggested sending him to bed earlier and if that doesn't work (give it a few weeks at least) try melatonin. I worked with a lot of kids with asd who had sleep issues and melatonin really worked for them.

WriterofDreams-thanks for that. I'm almost certain it's not a behaiour issue too-thanks for the support x
LeninGrad-it is a vicious circle-everybody's exhausted :(
Will update in a few days.
Thanks guys x

WriterofDreams-thanks for that. I'm almost certain it's not a behaiour issue too-thanks for the support x
LeninGrad-it is a vicious circle-everybody's exhausted :(
Will update in a few days.
Thanks guys x

Ah-poor you and DS1 :(
3 weeks is a bit harsh!
I think that about DS....his brain is just whizzing.
I hope the room change helps. And good luck with paediatrician referral......is it sleep related?
How old is DS1?

Ah-good to hear you have a good doctor....that helps.
Must be very frustrating.........DS gets so upset that he can't sleep :(
Totally agree with you on the effect of interrupted sleep on behaviour. DS has complete meltdowns somedays-so upsetting to see :(
Anyway, thanks to the good advice I've had on here, hopefully we'll get on top of it.
Hope you sort your sleep issue out soon, too. It's always a lot easier to face what life throws at you when you've slept :)