Vicious circle of discipline/ bad behaviour

[HackneyHackette]

I wondered if anyone has any ideas on how to stop bad behaviour escalating as a response to discipline.

The kind of thing I mean is what happened tonight - DS1 (3yrs 4 months) rushing about pushing a trolley through the kitchen - boisterous but not naughty - keeps shouting "get out my way!" at me and his brother (10 months ) - I say "remember what happened on Thomas where Percy wants Emily to get out of the way - say excuse me please" ... - he refuses - I say I'll take the trolley away if he keeps bashing us and being rude - he immediately says it again - I try to take trolley and it turns into tussle - DH takes it - DS1 starts screaming and hitting him - tell him to go on naughty step, he runs away screaming, DH holds him there without giving attention, DS1 hits DH again, DH shouts at him and orders him upstairs, cue wailing from both sons as baby upset by all the stress.

This often happens (eg a dispute over a toy escalates to carrying him kicking and screaming out of play group), and sometimes I wonder if it is worth tackling "low level" bad behaviour when I know it will end up in screaming and no-one can even remember what the original thing was especially DS1. Would welcome advice!

Just to add: I'm sure I am doing something wrong, but what?

I thin you were being a bit precious to ask him to say "Excuse me, please" when surely the fun of his game was shouting at you to get out of his way?

I'd have ignored that, or asked him to do it another room (if his brother was in danger), setting up a row of soft toys for him to mow down.

My DS2 is sooo placid comared to his older brother, but I'm much more easy-going this time and I think that's rubbed off on him. I was far more controlling with DS1 and that's how you're sounding, I'm afraid. I don't think you can demand complete compliance with every single thing you say. Set a few non-negotiables (hold my hand when we're out, don't be rude [he wasn't being rude, it sounds like he was just being boisterous like you said], don't hit people) then use distraction/re-direction for the other stuff.

Otherwise he'll end up not listening to a word you say because he'll think you just tell him off alllll the time about everything.

Having said all that, 3 till 4 is a total PITA age. Four is much much nicer.

ok well... firstly you need to stop instant demands, and also make it simple.

so you start with a long sentence making him think about a tv program etc etc
that's fine if you're having a chat about it at a calm time and talking stuff through, but when you'd like him to stop doing something straight away you need to make it much more simple

so, "ds1, say excuse me please" is likely to get a better result.

also, he is probably only just learning consequences. he doesn't necessarily fully understand that if you say "if you don't stop bashing us and being rude to me then I will take the trolley away" then it will actually happen.
as a slight aside was he actually bashing you with it? does he fully understand that what he was saying was rude?

it just seems like you escalated it very quickly from "you need to say excuse me please" to... "i'll take it if you carry on bashing me and being rude" to... hey it's gone!

i don't like the naughty step anyway because I think it teaches children that we only want them around us when they behave how we say so, it's very much a conditional form of discipline. It also teaches them that if they say they're sorry it doesn't matter any more.

Children, especially young children, are not going to learn to be polite and consistently remember to be polite instantly. You just need to keep reminding him and it doesn't need to end up with toys being taken away and games stopped. As you've found out, this just escalates it.
I find a persistent "say excuse me please" reminder every time works after a while

Thanks, I wondered if I was - I find it hard to know when I should be pulling him up on things and when not. I love the idea of the soft toys. Sometimes at the end of a loooong day it is hard to think of things like that, so I will be adopting the suggestion - he'll love it!
I think DS2 will benefit from my learning curve with poor old DS1. Still, I was the oldest also.

I would ignore low level. If he is causing damage or is a danger just ask him to stop. If he doesn't say you will count to 3 and take it away, then grab quickly so you don't get a tussle. The next day go to an area where he can rush around. I think refering to Thomas confuses things-it is too subtle for a 3 yr old.

thisisyesterday, I don't like it either, it was one of my shamefully judgey "I will never do this" that I have ended up doing. So keep reminding but don't expect that it will have an effect straight away? Sounds good.

I do find this parenting lark difficult - once you say these things it sounds like common sense but I don't think of them myself.

I do feel bad anyway as later on we were rolling around on the bed and he was doing forward rolls and went to say "get out of my way!" to his brother -and then said "please excuse me please" .

Must remember, he is only 3.

You could try giving him notice to change his behaviour in the form of a countdown... ie "when I get to 3, choose to say excuse me or play with a different toy", then count slowly, to give him time to alter his behaviour.

hey, no need to feel bad... you told him, he remembered AND he applied it in the right situation

so the earlier scene may have been avoidable but it isn't the end of the world and he's remembering what you've said to him for the time being at least

it IS hard. I remember getting to about 3.5 or 4yrs old with ds1 and just thinking OMG, i cannot do this
babies are so much easier. feed, cuddle, keep them warm... fine! but children with their own thoughts and personalities? and the knowledge that what you do now affects their whole life? it's really bloody scary!

I would say choose your battles and have a few simple rules. He is very young for excuse me stuff IMHO.

Accentuate the positive, everytime he does something 'good' praise him. Tell him you love him. Encourage empathy ( how do you think so and so felt when you did that?)

If his behaviour is poor - ie hitting, throwing things, running away, then tell him so, calmly. Don't make a big deal of it. If he doesn't comply with your request to stop behaviour, offer him 'quiet time' somewhere to calm down. I also find 'i'll count to 10' quite effective as it gives child time yo consider options before deciding to do as they're told (or not.)

Also good to replace one behaviour with another, rather than asking him to just 'stop' something IYSWIM- much more likely to succeed if you label the behaviour you want to see, even if it's just sitting down.

I do feel bad anyway as later on we were rolling around on the bed and he was doing forward rolls and went to say "get out of my way!" to his brother -and then said "please excuse me please"

Don't feel bad, feel AWESOME! You totally taught him to be polite! Yay for you and him.

personally I love a good book on parenting.

I'd try 'How to talk......' as number one on mumsnet and also 'Playful parenting' by L Cohen.

Ds' pre-school use 'positive encouragement' and distraction. So lots of praise for good stuff and try to distract if you see bad behaviour on the horizon.

It really works.

And pick your battles, why have a big fight if you don't need to? It was hardly running out in front of the road.

Also good to replace one behaviour with another, rather than asking him to just 'stop' something IYSWIM- much more likely to succeed if you label the behaviour you want to see, even if it's just sitting down.

A very good point - just shout 'SLOW DS' (not that he's slow).

I am only so opinionated as I have a challenging ds, who doesn't do what ANYBODY tells him.

Good luck!