Worried about my 3yr old DS - does this sound like normal behaviour??

[skidd]

He started pre-school in January and hasn't settled in at all. Have been thinking about it and have got myself into a panic that he might have ASD or DD or something. Please tell me if these behaviours seem normal for a 3year old:

language has never been great but probably just within normal range - now seems to be getting worse - difficult to understand - although his teacher says she can understand him

potty trained 6 months ago - now wakes up every morning with a nappy filled with (really unhealthy looking) poo

doesn't interact with other children at all at school although seems to want to (I think). A girl in his class told me yesterday that they call him "ghost" because he never speaks and always has the same scary expression on his face )

Is completely obsessed with Fireman Sam and 95% of what he says is related to Fireman Sam. If I ask how school was, he replies, "Sam put fire out with the big big hose" or something similar

Prefers to play alone than with others - apart from his big sister who he adores

Just seems quite unhappy a lot of the time but then can be happy, affectionate and lovely company - never aggressive or mean

He also has a squint which is being monitored - not that I think this is particularly relevant but might explain some of his other behaviours??

He was a lovely happy baby and I couldn't believe how easy he was after a nightmare more challenging DD - would never have anticipated this

What do you think? Should I be worried? Thanks

I don't know whether you should be worried, but you obviously already are - go to see your GP, tell them what your worries about him are and ask for a referral to a paediatrician...

they'll assess him and if there's nothing to worry about, they'll tell you so

Have a chat to your HV and also the pre-school. Kids that age can be totally self-centred and get easily obsessed with things they enjoy. Try not to worry.

Skid, that must be a worry.

Was the girl that said that one of the older ones? Has dd said anything? Seem to remember you saying that preschool and reception share a classroom so maybe he is just overwhelmed by some of the bigger ones that have been there longer and will get more confident once he has been there a while... Could you maybe try to get him to socialise with a couple of the other younger ones outside of preschool to see if that builds his confidence a bit? I know ds seemed a bit lost to begin with but now he has his own friends (previously just tagged along with whatever dd was doing ) he seems a lot more settled and confident.

I think the fireman sam thing is completely normal btw.

Re the poo, do you think he is holding it at preschool? Maybe they could try getting him to go at the same time as dd for a bit? Or it could be related to eating a bit differently... ds woke up for a poo in the night for the first few weeks after he started and I then realised it was because he was drinking a whole carton of milk at snack time and ds has never drunk cows milk before.

Sorry I am just stabbing in the dark here.

Definitely worth talking to his keyworker about it though, they may be able to help him settle in a bit more

Skid - a lot of what you describe doesn't seem out of the "normal range" to me (not that I have a huge amount of experience!). Being obsessed with fireman sam is really nothing to worry about - dd2 is obsessed with disney princesses, I think this is a phase they go through. Perhaps the not playing with other children is because he is used to being with his big sister a lot of the time? Certainly dd2 while very outgoing and sociable at home with me can become very quiet, shy and introverted when we go anywhere and I think she is counted as one of the "quiet" ones at preschool and ballet.

Anyway I agree with the others, as you obviously are worried it's worth getting as many expert opinions as possible. The preschool leaders would be a good start - they will have seen hundreds of children and would surely have already have said something to you if they had any major worried about him.

How do you know he's not interacting with other children? Have you spoken to the pre-school, his key worker or class teacher? I agree with strandednomore, if they are halfway decent, they would recognise any difficulties he's having. Although if he's only been there a month it might be too early for them to get to know him.

The lack of interaction might just be because he has so recently started. What is his behaviour like with other children outside pre-school? eg other playgroups, friends' kids, parties etc?

Yes obsessions in 3yos are not uncommon, but you have to look at whether this is all he can talk about. And for example, if his talking about it constant, repetitive, and is totally out of context and inappropriate to the conversation, that is not really normal at this age.

Maybe he might benefit from some help with language and socialising - definitely talk to his pre-school about this. Are they supporting him enough to integrate do you think?

If his language or how he processes it is a bit delayed, this would affect how he socialises, so he should really be getting some help from staff with playing with other children.

I would speak to the pre-school to see what they think, and probably to HV or GP - there's no harm in him being assessed. If, for example, there is some language delay or disorder, there will be loads you can do to help, and he will be much happier.

Is he being excluded by the other children
Some children need a little help to make friends.
He has just started as well- he could be very tired and anxious.
Poor little thing, I am sure he will be okay. I wouldn't worry about the fireman sam obsession- my son was like that about ben 10 around the same age

Thanks for the responses - feel a bit reassured that most of his behaviours aren't too out of the ordinary.

Have spoken to his teacher - she has said that he doesn't talk to other children but does respond to teachers when they speak to him (although still very shy). She says she understands my concerns and we will meet in 4 weeks time to see how he is then. I also asked her about the fireman sam thing and she said if it carries on for 6 months then it would be worrying (has been about 3 so-far)

sorry have to rush off but will reply properly later

thanks again for replies - really helpful

OK back again...

bialy - "And for example, if his talking about it constant, repetitive, and is totally out of context and inappropriate to the conversation, that is not really normal at this age."

Yes it is pretty constant, out of context and repetitive - he tells stories most of the time which he has read/watched but can go on and on and on for two hours, doesn;t need a response, just monologues. Having said that, he can also respond appropriately and can talk about other things, e.g. ask what's for dinner, ask his sister about stuff she's into - but it is Fireman Sam most of the day from morning till night. It doesn;t seem normal to me but maybe it is...

Mrsruffalo - no I don;t think the other children deliberatle exclude him - he just doesn't try to interact with them, and if they speak to him, he turns away and doesn;t answer

Did your DS talk abut Ben10 to the same extent as I have described? If so that is really reassuring

stranded - he is in social situations with other children quite a bit - and I hve to say he is MUCH better with children he knows well so shyness is definitely an issue - it just seems a bit extreme IYKWIM?

Freakoid - yes he is one of the youngest and I think that's an issue. I did invite one of the younger ones round this week but he just wanted to play with my DD instead

I suspect his poo problem might be a food intolerance - GP has sent some samples off for tests so that is being dealt with at least

Thanks everyone for your input - any other comments much appreciated, especially from people whose DC have shown these behaviours

What you say about the talking about fireman sam would definitely reassure me actually. I was asking to try and gauge whether if, say, you asked him a question like eg would you like an apple, if he'd answer it with something totally inappropriate. If so, that might concern me, as it might suggest a problem with language understanding, or difficulties with social interaction. But it doesn't sound like that to me actually (not that I'm an expert, just have a ds with ASD!). To me this sounds just like a 3yo obsession!

If I was in your position if it continues I would talk to pre-school about ways to help him interact and socialise, and whether he needs any additional support with that. Sounds like they're a pretty good school and on the ball, which is great, so hopefully they can give appropriate support for him if needed - eg taking time to play in small groups etc.

I'd keep an eye on the language development too - perhaps talk to HV and ask for referral about this?

Good on you for taking action so far - whatever happens, whether he needs any additional support or not, you sound like you're really proactive about getting him help

thank you bialy

I feel much better after reading that. He does sometimes respond to 'would you like an apple?' type question with a fireman sam story but not always so I guess that is a good sign. So this is really normal toddler behaviour?? I am shocked!

It is a really lovely, inclusive, welcoming school and I am sure they will do all they can to help him feel secure there. Hopefully if I can arm him with a few tricks he will develop the confidence to start interacting with other children.

Thanks again

When dd2 started preschool she did nothing for the first couple of weeks except play with the sand table. She didn't talk to anyone. I started to get worried, but the (very experienced) preschool leader pointed out that she was just taking it all in, and had positioned herself precisely so she could see what was going on, but was "protected" by the sand table. She said that dd2 would come out from behind the table and talk when she was comfortable and confident with her new environment.

She was absolutely right, eventually dd2 started to interact and we've never looked back. Starting preschool is hugely stressful for some children, and the stress shows itself in various ways (regression of toilet training being one of them).

The Fireman Sam obsession also sounds normal - for ds1 at that age it was Thomas the Tank. He would also obsessively line up matchbox cars and talk to them for hours. When he got to 4 or 5 it was willy jokes all the way, and I looked back fondly on those days of innocence!!

Glad you're feeling a bit better

It's very difficult at this kind of age - there is so much variation in normal development, and signs of some of the less obvious difficulties with language or interaction are hard to spot. But I would say (from experience) that if there is anything you are concerned about, that little niggle in the back of your mind, it is so much better to have it investigated than just hoping it'll go away.

If you do have worries about his understanding of reciprocal or meaningful interaction or conversation, along with the interaction with other children (the two issues would almost certainly be related), I would go to HV or GP.

The one regret I have is that I had worries about ds from the age of about 2-2.5 but did nothing till he was 3 (hoping he would just grow out of it etc). I am absolutely not suggesting your ds does have asd or anything, but just that it would do no harm whatsoever to talk to HV or GP - there is often a long wait for assessment so there is nothing to lose - either he'll be absolutely fine by then and you can cancel it, or you'll be further towards getting him help he might need (eg salt).

He sounds great though, and the preschool sound on the ball, so hopefully in a month or so he'll be fine

Thanks Cointreau, hopefully the same will happen with my DS. After 2 weeks I wouldn't be worried either but it's been 5 now and no improvement (yet) but will definitely hang on for another 4 and see what the teacher says at our meeting

bialy - that's exactly my concern - I have done a little bit of research into ASD and know how important early intervention is so I am a bit torn between thinking I am being hysterical and thinking who cares, all that matters is his welfare and the worst that can happen is the GP/psychologist will think I'm being silly. Hope your DS is getting support and doing well now?

I am with Bialy-if you are concerned, get him seen by a devlopmental paediatrician (via GP). If there is nothing wrong, then it will just provide you with reassurance, if they have concerns, the earlier you get intervention the better. I have a DS with ASD and whilst I am not suggesting this is the problem, what I would say is many many well-meaning people said to me"oh, dont worry mine does that", what they didnt get was the EXTENT to which my DS did a particular thing-ie only talking about Fireman Sam to the exclusion of every thing else and when it is out of context is very different to the mild obsessions a NT toddler gets. And I only really realised this when I had my NT DD who did display obsessive behaviour at that age but in a far more appropriate way iyswim.
HTH

thanks oddgirl - would you mind answering a question: from what I describe of my DS does his Fireman Sam obsession seem more like your NT DD or your ASD DS? I know your answer doesn't mean my DS does or doesn't have ASD I just want to get an idea of the extent of obsessional interests which are within typical development.

I will seek a professional opinion as well - just want to hear your gut instinct as someone with experience (if you don't mind) - thank you

Forgot to say he also can't bear bright lights - no idea if this is relevant but his reaction to them is quite extreme

Really difficult to say skidd, particularly because at this age it is often hard to tell. But I had a nagging concern with DS that he didnt behave like his peer group. Now with some children it may be simple emotional and social immaturity which resolves over time but with DS traits became more obvious over time. How was your DS with non-verbal communication? Did he wave, point,engage interest with you, want to show you things, to share stuff with you? Does he play with toys appropriately, does he engage in appropriate imaginative play? ASD needs 3 areas of impairment (triad) for a definitive diagnosis and can be subtle.
The bright lights aversion sounds like a sensory issue to me. Does he dispaly any other sensory stuff? ie hands over ears to loud noises/tip toe walking/doesnt appear to feel pain. Sensory processing problems can be part of ASD but they can exist in their own right too so dont assume the worst.
I think you sound sufficiently concerned to get a paed opinion. If you need any more reassurance/info pop over to special needs board-full of info/support and reassurance
HTH

Agree with oddgirl and bialy. Would definitely get a referral (don't let the GP do a 'wait and see' thing). Its not that your post rings major alarm bells - but so much better to get on top of it now. Just in case.
And the nursery sound lovely so hopefully they can help with social stuff and getting him integrated. Good luck.

Hi there, My DS at 3 hated bright lights, especially in supermarkets (a good tip is to put a cap on him with a big peak which blocks out the light). How does he react to lights? Does he have any other sensory issues? I would definitely get a referral for peace of mind.

Not much useful to say Skidd but I was wondering if his sensitivity to bright lights could be due to his squint? My DS2 (with the squint) is sensitive to light, with or without his glasses, but especially when he's not long been awake. He is also a total clown at home but when he first started pre-school was very shy.

On the other hand I would definitely try and get some more expert advice from GP/referral as if he needs some help he'll get it early and if he's 'normal' then you'll have peace of mind

The poo thing could well be to do with extra milk at pre-school but I would probably speak to GP about that too.

thanks all

beckle - yes the bright lights thing is in the morning and I did wonder if it was to do with his squint

the poo thing is not due to extra milk at pre-chool as he has never had milk or fruit as he is too shy/anxious to try anything

I have been observing him this weekend with my mum though and he interacts really well with her, responds appropriately etc so starting to think it is an nxiety/shyness thing rather than something more worrying... anyway will see what GP says

have to rush off now, back late, thanks again

unexpected opportunity to come on again briefly!

oddgirl - thanks for your input. His nonverbal communication is fine I think but he does have those sensory things you mention, esp. walking on tiptoes. Are there any specific sensory disorers?

justabout - yes I have been getting a lot of, oh it'll be FINE, and oh my DS does that, which is quite frustrating at times. I know all three year olds get really into things like Fireman Sam but not to the extent that my DS does.

He is also a middle child, one friend said she thought this might be a big issue as his big sister is very confident, loud etc, and then DS2 is only 11 months so he obviously needs lots of attention - and because DS1 is so undemanding I guess he does get a lot less attention - but this is when I start blaming myself which can;t be good...

One question pleae - do you think I should initially go to the GP WITHOUT DS so i can tell him all my concerns without DS having to listen? One friend suggested this and it made sense to me

thanks justabout - that is so nice to hear, awful how quickly we are able to turn it all back on ourselves, oh it must surely be MY FAULT. When you read about the 'refrigerator mother' theory of autism that used to exist, I can;t believe people ever argued that but then here's me straight off thinking what I must have done wrong...

Like you, I too have a beautiful affectionate son. And whatever happens of course that will not change. TBH I don't feel all doom and gloom about it, I just want to give him all the support I possible can as soon as I can IF it turns out that he needs it.

Thanks so mcuh for replying, it really is helping to reflect on what's important