2yo says nothing, no pointing either....

[scaryclary]

I wonder what anyone with ASD expertise thinks about this.
I was talking to an acquaintance at toddler group the other week, haven't seen her with her dd that much, she's almost 2 and mum says, yes, she's got some delays and is seeing people at the hospital. I expressed concern as you would and the mum told me dd didn't say anything. Anything at all. No pointing either. Nothing. Not even grabbing hand and going waaaaah while pointing at fridge for a drink of milk.
I said how do you know if she wants a biscuit? she said it was sort of a process of elimination. Also her dd plays in an immature way she said (child seemed to spend most of group clinging to mum/pushing a pushchair around).
Thing is I was wondering about ASD but she said the docs had said no, because of how dd was socially (?my totally NT 2.5yo is not very good socially!).
So I was wondering if they (docs) could be wrong? (surely not). Is not pointing or communicating in any way a red flag for anything else? And am I just being an interfering old mare? (probably...)
(sorry about long post)

Well, not pointing by 18 months is a definite red flag for autistic spectrum disorders, I'm afraid.

And yes, GPs can be wrong - we were told that our DS1 couldn't possible be autistic because he didn't spend all his time obsessing over a light, or similar.

I was told on several different occaisons (by supposed experts - on in particular was an autism specialist SALT) that my non talking, non pointing 2 and a bit year old "definitely isn't autistic", and also that "if there is anything wrong it is so mild it will never be a problem". He was diagnosed with "mild language delay". He's severely autistic (and still non-verbal at 6). I was also told he was "too sociable" and "too affectionate".

My friend was told by her GP that her dd couldn't be autistic because she was a girl and was told by Christopher Places (a specialisit SALT centre in London) that her dd definitely wasn't autistic- just had some delays.

However I really wouldn't say anything to your friend unless its to encourage her to get another opinion (as in a yes I'd go for it type way). Not poiting etc can be a sign of a global developmental delay- and the docs may be seeing something we're not. Also if they are wrong (entirely possible- perhaps quite ;likely) then she'll be in limbo land of knowing somehting is wrong, but not being able to do anything about it.

I think the docs could well be wrong. My ds2 (2.8yrs) has a provisional diagnosis of ASD and it's often commented on how 'sociable' he can be. When he wants to he can make good eye contact, smile, say "hello" etc. The problem is that it is strictly on his own terms. As his Early Years worker describes it ds2 has an 'off' switch. One minute he is happy and smiling and the next he has completely shut down.

My ds1 (now 5 and also with ASD) was also silent at 2 and didn't pooint. Your friend's comment about guessing by a process of elimination was a good description of life with both boys when they were 2.

Interesting. DS1 has Aspergers, but developed language early (fluent at 1). Your friend's description is similar to my youngest a few months ago (he is 26 months now- I have three boys). DS3 is now trying to speak, and the pinting / grabbing thing came overnight about three weeks ago.

DS3 was assessed by speech and language for delays but we were told he was fine, I think he does have SOME delay but there is absolutely no way, when I compare him to Sam (DS1), that he has the same syndrome. I think he is just delayed, mainly due to a bad start / poor growth that held him back.

If I was your friend I would keep asking, and pushing- talk to SALT, every Paediatrician you can find, BIBIC, NAS, the communication charity Afasic, NAS to try and build up a picture. But I wouldn't panic yet- just a few weeks ago I would have sworn Harry had communication issues severely. he is still noticeable behind others his age, but catching up.

Good luck to your friend.

thanks everyone for your replies.
Sort of confirms what I had feared too, but babakat (are you somebody else we know well???) I agree I wdn't say anythign to her unless she asks about going to other docs.
I guess she may have global development delay rather than ASD if the pointing can indicate that.
What is that anyway? Or is it just a blanket term to cover a delay for no known reason?

yes I am!

GDD is often given when ther is no other suitable dx, but often it will be changed later. Lack of pointing is most commonly seen in autism (the more severe end of the spectrum) -more specifically it's a lack of pointing out things of interest.

just curious. i have no advice to offer. when you say 'silent' you mean she doesn't even babble? or is she just not saying any actual distinct words?

I think if she is seeing people at the hospital then they will probably pick up if she is autistic. My Ds2 doesn't point much and he has disordered language and some "social communication" problems plus a lot of dyspraxic symptons. He has been seen by all and sundry and doesn't have an ASD diagnosis yet - he is now 4. I personally don't think he is autistic and I think that a lot of the reason he doesn't point is because of the problems he has with his motor skills probably combined with poor communication. However lack of pointing is usually taken to indicate language disorder / autism.

That's interesting about your ds saker. I agree you'd think the hospital wd pick up on ASD but what bakabat says suggests it may often be missed.
Daddycool she says nothign at all, when you talk to her you just get no response. I can't imagine what a nightmare it must be just to decide what she wants.

no babble either? DS1 doesn't say anything but he's not really quiet- lots of sounds and occasional word approximations. I presume they've checked hearing etc.

Name change because my head exploded on a thread- I've been baka before- it means idiot in Japanese and is a reminder to myself that I should be doing RL things rather than arguing with people on mnet.

Although they should be perfectly able to dx ASD at 18 months often they do like to wait a bit to see how things develop (and as long as parents aren't in limbo land too long it can be the correct decision tbh) they may be doing that- wouold be nice if they would start services whilst considering the dx- then it doesn't really matter so much.

Well, I have never heard her say anything and the mum said she doesn't, but it's hard to judge on a brief chat.
They live in my area but I never see them out and about, think they go everywhere by car, so I don't really "chat" to the dd that often iyswim.
I think she said they had checked hearing and she was havign SALT. She was more concerned about the immature play tbh. I suppose that that is not an ASD symptom which could be why they are going in a different direction.
Anyway, I'm just speculating. Just wanted to see if I could help her really tho I guess if she's seeign docs at the hospital they will be helping her as much as anyone can.

Immature play/inability to play is an ASD symptom- quite a big one. Hope she gets somewhere soon.

yes of course bakabat, as soon as you say that I recall yr post about if yr ds1 was in Hamleys he would not want to play with anything. I think her dd will play with things but not in the way you would expect (eg no imaginative play etc) but then plenty of 2yos don?t do much of that. or am I wrong?

well I don't know really- ds2 played from a very young age (not necessarily alaborate- but he had to play. ds1 just stared at sinks or doors or looked out of windows.

Sorry to but in but thought your friend should have the chance at least to explore other options.

At the same age my DS was showing exactly the same behaviour - speach & play. Didn't make any sounds other than crying. To get him to choose we had to offer, say, a banana and yoghurt and then watch which one he looked at most. Hospital, SALT, HV all immediately took us down the ASD route & told me this was the most likely explanation. BUT he had never had a hearing test & I kept pointing this out to them. He was afraid of washing machine, vac, hairdryer etc & reacted badly. Couldn't take him anywhere in case of too many disturbances. Shopping centres were a no go. National Deaf Children's Society advised caution as they said that ASD and Glue Ear are very easy to confuse. I followed this through. My DS (now almost 5 and in school) turned out to have GE & is now happily talking & playing. NOTE: It took LOTS of tests and patience to evidence this. Has very good imagination & sense of humour BUT still delayed / immature speach & poor social skills. But he is catching up!

The no babble/sounds made me wonder about hearing Andi- the non-verbal autistic children I know are all noisy.

small update
Saw the mum again at toddler group on weds. Watched her dd again and heard not a word nor a sound (but clearly, in context of busy group this may not be so significant). She was very busy rushing about but didn't really play with any of the toys and no chance of her sitting down to do the craft etc. Mum said dd has now been seen again and told she needs the paed to see her soonest - now talking of ASD. Certainly from what you all say it does sound like it. Didn't think to ask about the hearing but surely that will have been an early thing to test.
Oh it doesn't sound great does it. On the plus side she is the smiliest most cheerful girl you could look for.

hearing tests often get forgotten or takes ages to do (because they're hard to do with a child with ASD so can takes ages to be sure), glad to hear she's been referred to the paed though. Tell her about the SN section here (you can always ask tech to delete this thread if you're worried about her seeing it).

thanks for update btw.