Sticker chart for dd2 but it's not working how I expected

[Miaou]

dd2 has always been the one to misbehave, but since ds was born we have had a few issues with lying and destroying things. After talking to her about it, we are fairly happy that she is ok in herself, although she needs a bit of emotional support at the moment (which she is getting). Hand in hand with this, though, we wanted to tackle the unacceptable behaviour so we have implemented a sticker chart for good behaviour.

There is a "happy box" and a "sad box" for each day, and they get stickers in the happy box for doing good things (getting ready for school in time, tidying up, playing nicely etc), or in the sad box for misbehaving (lying, continuing to annoy her sister after two warnings, etc). At the end of the day she gets to draw a smiley face/sad face according to how many stickers she has earned. If she gets more than 4 sad faces in a week she forfeits her ballet lesson. dd1 has a chart too because she didn't want to be left out!

Anyway - yesterday (day 2 of the chart system), after two warnings about annoying dd1 (this is a big problem as it escalates), she was given a sticker in the sad box. She was absolutely mortified. She removed herself from the situation (they were colouring a picture together) and sat on the settee and listened to a tape. After five minutes I asked her if she felt ready to go back and colour again with dd1, but she said no, as she was afraid she would get another sad sticker! And this morning, she presented me and dh with a card, beautifully drawn, which said inside "Dear mummy and daddey, I'm sorry about getting a sad stick (sic)Sorry I love you"

While I'm glad she's taking it seriously, I think she's taking it to extremes, I don't want her to be afraid to do things (eg trigger situations) and neither do I expect her to be still so remorseful the next day!!!

Any suggestions as to how I handle this?

And apologies, this is far too long, never was any good at summarising

we do crosses and smiley faces. the 1st time my dd1 got a cross on her chart, she had a paddy, which meant that after giving her time out, iwarned her that if she thumped dd2 again she would get another cross, and if she paddied about it, then she'd get another one. mean mummy? me?

If she paddied, misdee, I probably wouldn't be so concerned, but I'm worried that seeing a "sad" sticker may just be reinforcing her "I'm a bad person" feelings! I've never seen her look so .... defeated. She does have some self-esteem issues at the moment, hence the use of the words "happy" and "sad" instead of good and naughty.

bump...

Really need to sort out the unacceptable behaviour but not at the expense of her own self-worth

Hope fully she wont be so devestated when it happens again, maybe a chat about well if you dont do XYZ then you wont have to do the sad sticker bla bla bla..........and the warning next time SHOULD be enough.

hmm maybe you're right charliecat, I suppose I was just surprised by her reaction, she normally takes any kind of telling off in her stride. Coupled with the problems we've had with her since ds was born, I think I am over-worrying about it!

Yesterday she didnt really get the concept know she knows shes going to have to get a sad sticker, that rerally wasnt very nice for her so i think she will do ask shes asked next time Hopefully......

my ds reacts very badly to negative feedback, especially on something like sticker charts where his naughtiness is up on display for all to see and remind him how he has been. if he gets a sad face he just gives up and his behaviour really goes downhill

we now have a sticker chart where they get stickers for being good, but do not lose them or get sad faces for being bad. instead i make him sit on the naughty step as a punishment and i have to say he has never been so well behaved. after he has been on the step, the naughtiness is forgotten and he can start to work towards a sticker without a sad face hanging over him. he still learns not to repeat the bad behaviour, but he doesnt have to be reminded about it days afterwards

i would also be tempted to introduce a new treat if she gets lots of good stickers, rather than taking away a treat she already has if she gets bad ones. this is more negative than positive. if she is naughty, she loses, if she is good, she doeasnt really get anything extra iyswim

ds2 reacts fine to the happy/sad type charts, but they just dont work for ds1 who takes everything much more to heart.

interesting gg, and you've highlighted a potential problem re the negative sanction but no positive one. tbh (and this is where dh and I disagree with supernanny and the like), I don't feel the good behaviour should earn an extra "reward" such as a treat, because it is just what is expected - I don't want them to behave in order to get something, I want them to behave in order to be a functioning part of this household! But then maybe I am a bit harsh. dds are 6 and 8 though so not exactly "little". I suppose I am hoping that seeing happy faces on the chart is reward enough.

I think I'll see how it goes for the rest of this week and maybe re-evaluate if I feel she is not benefiting from it.

Miaou - the whole sticker chart thing was originally based on positive behaviour reinforcement. The basic premise being that children behave badly because it is the best way of getting the parental attention that they crave. Positive behaviour reinforcement acts by only 'rewarding' with lots of attention, positive behaviour. If applying it in a purist way, then you would ignore completely any bad behaviour, i.e. they do not get any 'reward' in terms of attention for bad behaiour but get it in spades for being good.

I think therefore that you need to try and reduce the capacity for rewarding bad behaviour. I can imagine how difficult it is to try and protect the baby, but are there any practical ways round this?

My 2 are quite close together and if DD was annoying DS when he was a baby, I used to plonk her into the play pen but equally when she was behaving well I would often pop DS in the play pen for 20mins and sit down and read her a book or spend some time just with her.
Is there any way logistically to separate and distract when she starts annoying the baby???

I think it sounds like she is having a hard time adapting to the newbie - someone once said to me that it is like your DH bring a new wife home and being expected to not only put up with it, but share his excitement at how much fun it all is

I hope you work it out - but if it were me, I would look to subtely change the reward chart so that only smiley faces count (to get you started)!

i see what you mean about not being good just to get something. i tell my kids that if you are good, nice things happen, if you are naughty they dont. if they are being really good i will bring them little surprises which they miss out on if they are naughty. its not expected cos its totally random, but it reinforces the idea of being good all the time. lets face it, we do stuff we dont want to do (ie going to work) because we get rewarded for doing it!

a nice thing is something like a trip to the library or a day out somewhere. doesnt have to be money/sweets, just an enjoyable time which would not be enjoyable if they were misbehaving. the other alternative is to link stickers to pocket money and then she gets so much per sticker. the pocket money can be something she gets anyway, but the better behaved she is the more she gets.

otoh it might just be getting used to it as you say. ds2 does react well to them, i think its just different things work for different kids. thought i would chip in incase any of my ramblings were any use to you

Oops just realised that its her elder sister not hte baby she is annoying - send her to her room for time out - the equivalent of ignoring I would think at her age?????????

soapbox - ironically, she is brilliant with ds - plays with him, (as much as you can play witnh a 7 wk old!!), helps bath and change him etc. I think it's not being the littlest any more that has hit ger hard.

In the past we have tried ignoring the bad and praising the good, but she seems to find it difficult to judge when her behaviour is unacceptable - most of her "bad" behaviour centres around annoying dd1 - and it's the kind of drip drip chinese water torture thing - just little things like poking her, repeating silly noises when dd1 is trying to concentrate, touching her with her feet under the table etc - nothing you could really say "you must not do x" about. dd1 is pretty patient but after asking her not to annoy her a few times she, understandably, gets really irritated, and it begins to spoil whatever game/activity they are doing. The problem is she doesn't seem to be able to help herself.

Meant to add, maybe we should consider the naughty step again - not done that for a few years. May help just to remove her from the situation.

I think she just gets giddy and winds herself up into silliness, but it drives poor dd1 (and us) to distraction sometimes.

I remember seeing an idea where the sad face got covered by a sticker after the child had been good therefore meaning the sad sticker/face wasn't there hanging over them all week.
Supernanny also did one with a chart where a plane had to reach the sun at the top and got moved down for bad behaviour and up for good (started in the middle) so any bad behaviour could be cancelled out by the good again. I am no expert though and just trying to find a way to discipline my dd1 at the mo but wondered if perhaps these ideas might help. Good Luck.

Perhaps a time out step would help as it seems to be attention seeking by the drip drip drip affect to wind the sister up. (I find myself doing this with DH to get a reaction from him sometimes ) The time out step will mean she gets no attention.....difficult one though as there is a lot going on for her.. and you!

Good ideas cooperoo. Dh and I did explain to her that we might change how we did the behaviour chart if we felt it could be done better another way. I like the sticker over the sad face one.

at the thought of you doing the same as dd2 - I suppose that means she may never stop doing it!!!

my mum uses the so called naught step with emma my dd , and it works great at her house but there emma behaves yet with me it wont work. its stoped working because emma now does somethin wrong on purpose and goes to the naughy step, its lost its feel of discipline.

She sounds like she has turned it into a game, emmasmummy. How old is she? Could she benefit from a sticker chart/reward system?

Emmasmummy - I have the same thing mentioned on a thread I started in Parenting. DD! takes herself to her 'naughty chair' now

Miaou - Yes I am afraid I still, age 29, say controversial things to DH to get a reaction or if I am bored. He should pay me more attention in the first place though . He knows when I am doing it though so we are able to have a laugh about it. I am not sure if this is something I did as a child. I will have to ask my Mum. Perhaps my dd1 needs a sticker reward chart. Problem is we have just used one for potty training and the novelty didn't last long. Hmmm
Sorry for highjack with my ponderings...

That's ok

Maybe your dh should make you a sticker chart too - if you manage to get the picture of Tom Cruise/George Clooney /whoever to the top of the ladder, you get a bottle of wine/night out

Miaou - would the pasta jar system work better for her? That way you'd still get the "sanction" of pasta removed for misbehaviour, but without it being a visible reminder every time she sees it?

Heard about the pasta thing - how does that work? Do you start off with a certain amount of pasta? What happens when the jar is full?

There's a thread around somewhere ... hang on will dig it out

Here you go: one of the many pasta jar threads

Why not get soem magnetic numbers and give or take away points. This works well with dd when nothing else would. She chooses a treat or toy she wants - we work out how many points she needs to get and she get s points for being good or doing chores or loses them if she misbehaves. If you start of with a small points total even if she misbeahves she can still earn enough in a week for her treat.