Please help - what are we doing wrong? DS (4) is being so badly behaved (long sorry)

[iwouldgoouttonight]

Today my parents went to pick DS up from school. DS refused to come to them and started to cry. They tried to jolly him along, come on we can have some chocolate buttons while we walk home, etc. DS shouted at them to go away. They jokingly pretended to walk out of the playground and leave him there. He just stayed there. So eventually my mum had to drag him by the hand to get him out of the school. He then got worse and started to hit her and shouting at her to get off him. My dad tried to carry him but he kept on hitting him and shouting.

My mum tried to offer him the chocolate buttons again if he walked nicely and he snatched them out of her hand and threw them on the floor.

When they eventually got him home he spent the next half an hour trying to get out of the front door. They tried the naughty corner but couldn't get him to stay. I've already told him there is no television if he is naughty so they reminded him of that.

Eventually after about an hour he calmed down and played with them nicely until I got home from work.

This is turning into quite a common occurance now, the other day I had to drag him to school and no amount of encouragement, trying to make it fun and downright bribery made any difference.

He's worse around my parents - whenever we go to see them at weekends he refuses to go through the front door and tells them to go away. I feel awful because they are nothing but nice to him - my mum has helped look after him since he was a baby.

There is a whole other issue with him still wetting/soiling himself almost every day (I've already posted about that!) and it seems he is just downright stubborn!

My and DP are fairly quiet, we very rarely shout and (I hope) we're always polite to people. So I don't understand where DS has got this shouting and rudeness from - I know part of it is just being a 4 year old, but why is it always DS who has to be dragged to school, won't say hello to his friends in the street and is basically horrible to his grandparents?? I feel we must have done something really wrong somewhere but I have no idea what.

I don't know how to begin to deal with it now - I've spoken to him this evening about his behaviour towards my parents and he said he didn't know why he did it. I said if he was rude to them or hit them (or anyone) again I would take away his favourite toy. He said he would find where I'd put the toy and get it back! Later on he did say he would be nice next time so he doesn't lose his toy. But he has said this before and it still happens again.

I'm so upset about it - unfortunately I can't change my hours at work to do the school pick-up on Tuesdays so my parents don't have to go through it. But even if they didn't pick him up it still doesn't stop him being horrible to them when he does see them.

Sorry for the long rant - if anyone has bothered to get to the end any advice would be fantastic!

Okay, take a step back here. You have a young boy who seems unable to get potty training right - I have a 4 year old in the same boat (I feel your pain). We've had good success with sticker charts for weeing in the loo.

But soiling is unusual at his age, have you actually taken him to the doctor to check nothing is physically wrong?

In terms of your parents, I would speak to them and say 'look we are going to make a plan of how we handle this and agree it with them to get them onside.

I would be rewarding the good behaviour - for example, if he walks to the gate without being a sod, he gets a sticker and 100 stickers equals a prize. Ideally go with him to buy the prize first and put it somewhere unreachable but viewable (ours is up in the bathroom on a high shelf and DD looks at it each time she goes to the loo which reinforces the good behaviour).

In terms of the bad behaviour it is vital that responses are both low key and appropriate.

We don't hit said firmly but quietly. It's vital not to react - hard as it is. Make sure your parents understand that too. Don't do the punitive thing -it doesn't work because he just gets mad because he doesn't associate cause with effect.

And do take him to the GP - DD was being a sod for about two weeks and she turned out to be incubating some horrible vomity bug (nice).

Good luck :) If you want to vent you can always PM me (top of the page)

Thank you We do try to stay calm and say 'we don't hit', etc when he is being a pain in the arse playing up. You're right, we need to make a plan with my parents as well so they have the same approach - my mum said she lost it with him today (which I can completely understand after months of being abused by a 4 year old!)

We have done reward charts and it has worked for some things, e.g. it only took three days of stickers to get him to stay in bed at night, but for other things he is so stubborn/ willful/determined - the sticker chart didn't work at all with toilet training. But good idea about buying a toy and letting him see it but not have it until he's walked home nicely, or whatever.

We've taken him to the doctors about the toilet issues and he's had tests but everything came back fine and the doctor basically told us to be patient with him and it will come in time.

The behaviour with my parents has been going on for quite a while so I don't think its related to an illness. He does have low iron (which he's on medication for) and that makes him tired, and therefore can be badly behaved. But he's horrible to my parents even if he's full of beans and wide awake .

Thank you for your advice - its really appreciated, I'm at my wits end here!

LeninGrad - he has always been 'stubborn' but not like this. His teachers say he is stubborn and if he doesn't want to join in with an activity there is nothing they can do to make him. But if they leave him he tends to eventually do it in his own time. They say he's happy at school though and has made friends.

He's reluctant to use the loo rather than not getting there in time. He'd rather sit in his own wee than going to the toilet if we ask him to.

Tomorrow DP is going to take him to school and I will fetch him. As he was going to bed he said he wants DP to fetch him from school! I said I always fetch him on wednesdays and we had arranged to go to his friend's house, but he said he doesn't want to go unless DP comes too. Its almost as if he finds out what the plan is and then deliberately wants to do the opposite!!

I have 4.11 DS and when he is tired his behaviour can be awful. When he's not tired, he's a lovely little lad. School can really take it out of them. They can be 'full of beans' yet still tired. My DS will wet himself when he's really tired. I reckon it's related to his tiredness.

Can you get the iron thing checked out again to make sure it's working for him? Does he sleep OK at night?

Our school told us at the start of the term that it takes a Reception class about a year to get used to school routine and settle into it. It's hopefully just a 'phase'.

Thanks - yes I'm sure some of it is down to tiredness - we have been given medicine for him to take for three months and then he'll have another blood test to see how his iron levels are. He's been taking it for about 6-7 weeks now. But he can be lovely when he wants to - which is why its so upsetting to see him being so rude to my parents.

hi there, our ds will be 4 this week and your story sounds very familiar..although without the soiling.
our ds has never been the easiest child, he was a very very hard work toddler but began to improve loads at the beginning of this last year but this was TOTALLY thrown backwards by us doing a long-distance move over the summer - since then he has been desperately stubborn and contrary about absolutely everything and has been very violent towards me which has been awful.
However, I chatted to his teachers from the nursery class, a friend who is a child psychologist and numerous wiser souls than myself and they did help me to see that the way he was behaving was just his inarticulate way of responding to a very challenging time.
I am just relating this because I wonder if there is something else going on - starting school this year perhaps? - or if he feels unsettled in some way by your parents doing pick up especially etc (I know you can't change this, but maybe a strategy could be formulated..? not sure what!).
I have to say that I have not done as well as you and have done my fair share of yelling which has not helped and he only throws it straight back at me anyway.
But i did buy a book that is much recommended on here - "how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" which has REALLY helped me to really hear what ds is saying through his actions, and how to talk to him in ways that will help him work through his feelings, as well as helping me to see how unhelpful the things i have been saying to him sometimes are!
Things are improving although there are bad days but I think we are getting there over all.
Something that really helps us is to really clearly explain to ds exactly what is going to be happening to him day by day eg "mummy is going to take you to nursery today and then daddy will pick you up and we will go to the shop and then go home for lunch and then Oliver is coming around to play and then we will have tea together" etc etc... obvious I know but seems to ease things.
Sorry if none of this has been helpful, but you have my great sympathy anyway

Fairylights - I'm glad DS isn't the only one like this, and glad you're starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I'll definitely look at the book - I've heard it mentioned on MN before.

We've often wondered if something may have unsettled him - the arrival of DD maybe - he was 2.4 when she was born and he did a lot of 'attention seeking', but I'm not sure if its all down to that? He started school in August which is obviously a big adjustment too, especially as he only just turned four. But these are things that most children deal with aren't they?

LeninGrad - thats really interesting reading about PDA - I've not heard of that before - some of the traits I can relate to with DS, although some are also just how children are anyway so its difficult to know when they are just being difficult children and when there is another problem.

DS does like control, but he also likes to know a plan in advance so he can prepare for it. So things like, you can play for ten minutes and then we are going to go to have a bath, etc work much better than - right, bathtime now - he would really kick off if I said it like that!

But this morning I said daddy is going to take you to school, and he immediately said 'and you'll fetch me mummy?' - DP told me to agree with him because he knew he'd get upset if I said grandma was fetching him, but I thought lying would make it worse when my mum appeared at the school gates when he was expecting me. So I told him 'no, mummy is working today so grandma is fetching you' and that just made him going into meltdown. DP wasn't happy at all because then he had to try and get him to school when he was in a right state!

Because he likes control we try to give him a choice - like what to wear, a choice of a couple of things for dinner, etc which helps a bit.

I wonder whether the school pick up is an issue because me, DP, my parents and a friend take it in turns so it is more or less a different person each day, which isn't really a stable routine maybe. Although with me and DP working, and having to take DD to nursery, its difficult to change it.

Some of your DS "quirks" sound smilar to those my dd had at the same age....especially the wanting to do the opposite to what ws planned and also the havng to drag into school.

With DD I stopped telling her so much...no ention of who would pick her up or wha we were doing...simply took her wherever and she dealt with it mch better.

The school arrival and departure got better as she got less tired. It sounds like you havea glut of problems and they're conspiring to finish you up! I would speak to the HV about the tilet issue...somtimes they havegreat plans. Hope it gets better soon!

If it's any consolation, DD still thinks she is in charge of the world but has now conceded we might have a little bit of influence too. :)

it depends on your child's personality of course but maybe starting school would certainly be enough to unsettle a child who likes consistency and routine? I have been really interested to see the difference in friends dc who have started school and hardly blinked, and others who have found it a HUGE adjustment. Although our ds will be going up into the main bit of the school where he is currently in the nursery class next year I am pretty sure it will take some significant adjustment for him! Ho hum..
at least he has given us plenty of practice at coming up with helpful parenting strategies..

Just thought I'd give you an update on this!

Me and DS made a chart together which has all the days on and DS drew a picture of who is collecting him from school that day. It seemed to work at the beginning of the week and when my parents collected him on Tuesday they said he was much better - still had a couple of meltdowns but it wasn't constant. So thats a bit of progress.

But yesterday my friend picks him up (she does every Tursday, along with her two DCs) and he refused to come out of him classroom. Eventually she had to pick him up and carry him while he kicked and screamed (I am so full of admiration for her - no idea how she managed it with her two DCs as well, one in a pushchair) and she eventually calmed him down before he got back to her house. He was then fine but just quiet.

His teacher had a quiet word the other day to say he is refusing to change into his PE kit when all the other children do. We sat down and talked to him about it and he said he just didn't want to (I bought the 'How to talk so kids will listen' book and tried to use some of the ideas from there but I've only read the first couple of chapters so far!).

They're also doing a Christmas play in a couple of weeks and if we mention it he says he wants to sit with me and watch and doesn't want to be in it. I'm with him on that one - I hated being in plays at school - but I'm worried he will just refuse to take part on the day.

I know the play isn't such a big deal, but if he is refusing to get changed, use the toilet, etc I don't know what to do!

Just a thought but have you talked much to him about school. What he likes and dislikes. Is he good at PE? Does he feel that he can do it? I often find with my two that if they feel that they are not good at something or others are good at soemthing and they feel they won't be they will not want to do it, especially if others are watching and commenting on it. Maybe time at home doing some roleplay or trying to do some of the PE activities at home to increase his confidence might help.

I strongly believe Children behave badly because they are struggling to cope with something and at this age they are not able to comprehensively talk about what it is they are struggling with. Their only way sometimes to tell us that they are not coping is through aggression and anger.

Maybe you should look at what happens when others pick him up? Is the routine any different to when you pick him up? When my little one gets home we have half an hour of down time - watch telly, read books or quiet play where nothing is expected. After a long busy day at school sometimes being stimulated and expected to play nicely is sometimes too much.

My little boy quite often has an accident when he is tired / under the weather. Remember that low iron levels can make him tired. On top of starting school, maybe that is the reason for his bad behaviour. Perhaps walking home after already been tired is enough to send him over the edge. Is he expected to walk a long way home when he has these bad episodes?

All I can say (I know from a distance) is don't be too hard on him. I often find love, cuddles and fun activities helps better behaviour rather than punishing.

Sorry for such a long message. Thinking of you. Hope some of this helps.

What is your DS relationship with daddy and grandad like? Is he any different in just nanny picks him up??

if sorry.

Just another thought, how is his appetite? Has this changed? Nightmares?

Is he taking iron? Could he be constipated - causing soiling?

Can I just recommend another book, please: Unconditional Parenting.

One of the key points of this is to stop the ever more complicated reward and punishment systems of naughty step, taking away toys, offering chocolate buttons etc.

As others have also said, my recommendation would be to talk more to your DS about his experiences and reactions in a quiet moment, i.e. why does he react like that at others picking him up - is it because he misses his mum? Then going on to explain to him why you can't pick him up at said days. Ask him what would help - carrying a photo of you, phoning you when he gets to gp's house or other.

Explaining the consequences of his actions to him in order to teach him to be empathetic, i.e. you kicking your GM means that she is hurt and upset rather than that a toy is taken away/no TV. You being nice to your sister makes her happy, se how she is smiling, rather than you are a good boy and get a sticker. This should help your DS to become a caring and wellbehaved individual, whereas the danger of reward/punishment is that everything becomes about themselves and tend to make them egocentered rather than empathetic.

Hope this made sense and sorry about my poor English :). Hope it gets easier for you soon!

Thanks again for the advice - I think the low iron and tiredness is definitely part of it - he doesn't have a long walk home but it is up quite a steep hill so he possibly does just feel too tired to be bothered after a long day at school.

Thanks for the book recommendation too NewDKmum - it sounds similar to what I've read so far in How to Talk. I have been trying out over the last few days talking and getting him to talk to me more rather than punishments/rewards. He has been lovely over the weekend and actually asked to go to see grandma and grandad and phoned them up himself to ask if he could go round!

I've spoken to him a few times about getting changed for PE - it doesn't seem as though he thinks he's not good at it, and he does sometimes show me what he did in PE (wiggling on the floor pretending to be a worm etc). The issue might be that he struggles to take his school jumper off so today we have sent him in a zip up cardigan and will see what happens.

I've noticed since we've tried to talk to him differently he is opening up a bit more so will continue down that route. Fingers crossed for my parents picking him up tomorrow!