foreign languages and speech

[JJ]

Somehow, having forgotten what the language milestones are and when my first son met his, I completely missed that my youngest son (23 months) meets every single criterion for a speech disorder. Well, actually, that's overstating it. He understands things, is communicative (expressions, gestures and tone) and babbles nonsense nonstop. So he only really fits the criteria for expressive language disorder. (Postings by aloha combined with concern from my husband prompted my investigation into what was normal and what was not. My son, with his handful of barely understandable words and his two clear ones "No" and "Nei", is not normal.)

Anyway, we're in Switzerland (the German speaking bit) and he does hear a fair amount of German. His babysitter (a day and a half a week) speaks it to him and I have to use it (my German is crappy, btw) whenever out. Do you think that would slow him down? He does understand the babysitter for the most part and two of his words (nein and Danke) are German.

I will definitely take him into the doctor very soon and have no doubt she'll be extremely proactive (the doctors here seem to overreact, if anything) but was wondering your opinion on this. I've ordered "Babytalk" as someone recommended when I did a search of old threads and will start using that.

As I think speech therapy will be advised, what are your opinions on having that by a non-native and perhaps not fluent English speaker? I don't think it will matter at this point, but thought I'd ask.

Thanks for your help. I have to admit, I'm not horribly worried at this point, but do feel bad that I didn't recognize the problem a lot sooner.

JJ, my children are both billingual. My dd is 7 and my ds is 2. I am Swedish and my husband is English. We live in England. My dd was at the same stage as your ds when she was that age. In fact, her only recognisable words at that age was also "No" and "Nei" (would have preferred it to be "Yes" and "Ja" of course...;-))
She didn't really have a language before the age of 3, but then her speech really started to develop. She now speaks both languages fluently.
I do think it is quite normal for a billingual child to develop speech more slowly. I never really worried because she seemed to understand and she was also babbling nonsense all the time.
Hopefully you have nothing to worry about either, but I know it is difficult when all their little friends seems so far ahead.......

I heard that bilingual children develop speech more slowly as well. TBH as he babbles and understands and points (?? does he- this is the big one) and gestures I wouldn't worry too much.

Babytalk is very good and gives the same advice as a SALT would anyway (ufortunately the authour died recently- she was a very well respected SALT). I think 20 minutes of babytalk a day from you would probably be more use at this stage than formal SALT. If there is no improvement after 3 months then I would say go to a SALT. (If you were in the UK I would say go on a waiting list now- but then I would expect you to wait 8 months at least!)

If you feel that you should go and see a doctor/specialist, I would see someone with experience of billingual children. In my experience doctors and health visitors are obsessed with "milestones" and "normality charts". Not very helpful, but that is my opinion.

Thanks FairyMum. My worry is that he's not actually being raised bilingually. He gets a dose of German, but it's mainly English. It's what's spoken at home and I think I might have overstated the "out" as we don't go out to places where I need to speak every day (due to frequent tantrums -- not all mine, I promise).

I think he's very far behind all the other expat kids. I don't know this it's summer holidays and everyone seems to be gone but will make a point to find out how they're doing. LIZS, how's your son? Monkey? As an aside, have you guys had an overreaction to the most minor of healthcare problems here?

FairyMum, thanks for the post. I'll still make the doctor's appt and all that, but I'm hugely reassured. It must be hard for kids hearing a mish mash of languages (esp when the mother speaks both exceptionally poorly not you! I mean me. )

Ok, I'm so slow on the replying thing.

Jimjams, thanks! We're in Switzerland where the level of care borders on overreaction (maybe it's just my local hospital, though). It's good to hear good things about Babytalk (been ordered and should be here in a week or so - I forget who suggested it, but if you're reading this, thanks again!). I will feel much better doing something about it that people have recommended. I do think my son might have a slight hearing problem and will check that out asap, also. But, if he's got glue ear or something, what should I do? Eldest had grommits (it made a huge difference to him, educationally and more importantly socially), but at 3 1/2 years old. What are you supposed to do with a child who is having trouble hearing at 2? My one thing-I-won't-do (sorry there's a word that fits that and I can't think of it) is low dose antibiotics over a period of time. I've got The Fear of that sort of thing.

Thinking about you and SALT reminds me that my husband will be in London next week. He has bricks. I somehow thought that you guys had started that already? And then read just recently that you haven't. (I'm very very bad at keeping up). I've got no advice, obviously, but huge sympathy. And anger, of course. But that's just me.

For glue ear have you tried cranial osteopathy? Don't know if they have that in Switzerland! I do know some people it has worked for and others it hasn't. If your child has glue ear then the babytalk programme would help becuase it removes background noise and makes you work one to one with your child. By removing all the background and being with your child one to one then the glue ear problems should be minimised. I wouldn't use low dose antibiotics either. Antibiotics have given ds1 more problems than his vaccinations. I now use them only when absolutely necessary (ds2 had them when he would have been quite likely to die without them!). The sort of thing you can do baby talk wise is set up 20 mins/half an hour a day with your son by himself (that can be the tricky bit!) Get a few toys which you could shout "ready steady go" to. The pause and leave him to try and shout go. For building vocab posting is good. Build a posting box out of an aold shoe box, and get ds to post picture cards. As he posts say the name of the card. Any cards will do but if you want specific speech therapy cards have a look at the color cards on www.winslow-cat.com DS1 has learned all his vocabularly like this!

I think it might have been me that suggested babytalk- I suggested it to someone a while ago. It is good. I use its ideas with ds1 still.

I thought we were going to be getting SALT as well, but they seem to have disappeared again. I've binned the anger and am actively seeking a private SALT. Not so easy down here in the sticks!

God, I hope I didn't put the fear of God into you inadvertently. I secretly worry a bit because ds is pretty short in his peer group and very clumsy (still doesn't do steps properly but crawls up them instead of steps). This is probably the sort of thing that makes Jimjams go 'purleeese' but I am horrified if I've worried you.

Nah I'm not going purlease (really I'm not). If he' has short legs maybe steps are difficult?

JJ, there may not be a problem at all. DS2 barely uttered an understandable word at 23 months and was way behind DS1s language at the same age. He too understood pretty much everything we said to him though. He is now 29 months old and speaks in sentences. At about 25.5 months, his language simply exploded. I've just discovered that this was also the case for a friend's child, the same age as DS2 and also a second child.

Thanks all. SoupDragon, yeah, I think he just might be a late talker. Did yours babble a lot? Mine babbles constantly and will kind of try to repeat words but has a lot of trouble making the right sounds. (That's why I think it might be a hearing thing-- he says them like he hears them? Although he's not consistent.. this week "ahGah, ahGah" is his brother's name whereas a few weeks ago it was "gaGo, gaGo".) He doesn't really fit the verbal apraxia profile, though. He's been a bit behind with all of his stuff, but has caught up with gusto (ie, he's slow for the milestones, but never misses them).

Aloha, nope. I'm not all that worried and wouldn't have even asked if I'd been in an English speaking country where I felt comfortable and confident with the doctors. I love my son's paed (not a consultant, just that kids here have kid GPs) but do realize that a lot of what might happen will involve people who don't know English fluently. It helps me with the vocabulary if I know what I might need to say beforehand. Does that make any sense? But anyway, it was your comment on the toilet training thread (something along the lines of "my son says this.." ) that alerted me to the fact that my husband might be onto something. It's not a bad thing that you inspired me to make an appointment about this. We've been out of touch with people with the same aged kids all summer -- I think I would have panicked with the comparison and this is much easier.

Jimjams, thanks again. My guess is that cranial osteopathy is a done thing here. (They're very into alternative medicine.) Out of curiousity, are you pro or con homeopathy? (Just asking due to your conversation with hmb -- won't argue with you either way.) Thanks for the suggestions. Luckily, the book should arrive about the same time my eldest starts school, so I'll have time to implement the suggestions.

@ JJ I used to be totally anti homeopathy- I was a grain of sand in the english channel person. Out of desperation I tried some with ds1 once (thinking it couldn't do any harm- and having had my cousin telling me I should use homeopathy for the previous 6 months) and wow. I couldn't believe it. It had an incredible effect. And also did exactly what homeopathy claims the right remedy will do. Now I'm training to be a homeopath!

I used to think cranial osteopathy was cranky as well, until I saw it work wonders on a friends ds. Didn't do much for ds1, but it cleared ds2's chest (when I didn't even know it needed clearing).

Just read your verbal dyspraxia bit- can he stick out his tongue, lick his lips, suck and blow etc. Some kiddies with verbal dyspraxia can do those things but a lot can't. if he couldn't do those things I would susggest seeing a SALT sooner rather than later. Fine motor dyspraxia tends to go with verbal dyspraxia as well- so another clue to lok out for. If you do suspect dyspraxia then get some fish oils into him (pro-efa is the best brand for verbal dyspraxia- I order it from the states)

I have to say that he sounds very like ds2 (19 months so a bit younger), and I do think ds2 could have a speech disorder, but probably is just a bit of a late talker. I'm not worried about him yet anyway. If language (as opposed to speech) is obviously fine you do have time to muse and not worry if you see what I mean.

I think under 2 is very early to be worrying about expressive speech, in the absence of any other alarming signs, even without the two language complications. Our dd2 had only about 2 words on her second birthday, but now 7 months later is fluent and soaking up new words every minute of the day. I wouldn't have wanted a SALT 6 months ago, and all our HV did was suggest seeing her back in 6 months, by which time she seemed to have caught up (dd2 that is, I don't know about the HV)
Hope that helps - one of my nieces had been very similar, which is maybe why I really didn't worry about dd2's speech.

JJ are you worrying because Aloha wrote (about toilet training):

"...my ds is nearly two and nowhere near ready. He will say 'I've done wee wee' "? Because most of the nearly 2-yr-olds I know couldn't say that. Most nearly 2-yr-olds are barely onto 2 word phrases, never mind sentences.

My DH supposedly didn't speak until he was 3 (neither did Einstein, we all should remember?). JJ probably knows best because it's her child, but her description sounds very much like my 22 month old -- she says a lot, but none of it clearly. And that's only with the occasional string of Spanish from me to complicate matters. I just know that my 22 month old is normal, her comprehension is brilliant, even if she thinks she can use the same words for many things, and finishes most words with a "t" sound. Thus,

"beebit"=rabbit, baby, biscuit, guinea pig;
"Wuk"=Walk, Milk, Wee;
"Bok"=book, poop, --etc.

-- The girl is just being efficient!

Oh I should add- the only reason I think that ds2 could have a speech disorder is because ds1 has one and these things tend to run in families. It's not his (lack of) speech that makes me suspect a speech disorder iyswim

JJ, the standard joke about DS2 was that he spoke lots but no one was sure what his first language was. I've just heard him utter the sentence "I want my lid on too!" so he's gone from babble to adding the finer points of language such as "My" and "too" in about 6 months.

JimJams, you said somewhere that your DS2 sounds like your DS1 - do you think this may be because that's the language he hears and therefore learns from his elder brother? Kind of bilingual.

I guess now you've (both) mentally tagged the fact that there might be a problem, you can keep an eye on it and look for other signs. I was also worried about hearing problems/glue ear with DS2 because he always seemed to have a permanent cold as a baby. I knew he could hear but wondered if he was missing the top sounds and hearing things muffled.

I've also heard wonderful things about cranial osteopathy and homeopathy so I'd always be inclined to try them. Hope everything sorts itself out!

Hi JJ

Sorry you have got these concerns and agree they are all the more complicated because of living in a non-English speaking environment. However my understanding has been that as long as they can associate a particular language to a specific person/place then confusion should be minimised. So if the babysitter only speaks German to him then there should not be a particular issue.

I hope that it turns out to be a premature concern and that his vocabularly suddenly explodes. However I'm very much in favour of eliminating potential problems early. dd is due her 2 year "control" at the end of the month so perhaps your ds2 is too, that way you could raise your concerns in a low key way. I share your belief that the system can go into override though and now feel that the investigations dd had at 4 months of her kidneys etc following just one uti were a bit over the top.

Our neighbours' son (British, same age as ds) has suffered repeated ear infections, perforations and glue ear since he was one and by the time we met him aged 3 had had 2 sets of grommits and an adenoidectomy. He has had speech development problems and has both Swiss German and English therapy (latter arranged privately). I believe they had to argue for the Swiss therapy on the basis that they intend to reside here permanently (he was born here) and would prefer to use the local school system (currently attends a private Swiss kindergarten). I don't know at what age the speech therapy would be available for you but think he was over 3 when he started.

If you were interested in finding out more perhaps email me offline. Unfortunately I only know about the facilities over here but perhaps one of the International schools more local to you could recommend someone native English speaking to try.

hope this helps and all the best,

Thanks all. I'm going to do the Babytalk thing until my son has his 2 year check up in a month. I feel vastly reassured and the Babytalk will help with another of my problems at the moment: maternal guilt.

Zebra, my son is behind your son. But that was the bit I was talking about -- thanks for saying that that's really advanced!

SoupDragon, that sounds like my son. He does some squealing and has a favourite syllable of the day, but he "talks", just not in actual words.

If he has glue ear, I'll look into the cranial osteopathy. Jimjams, thanks for answering my question. (I had decided not to give my position away before I asked -- should have said that then. )

Are constant tantrums an alarming sign? We're down to about 6-10 a day and I'm learning what causes them, but today we had one that was caused by me handing an ice lolly to my son (he had wanted one and had, previous to the handing over, acted thrilled about it). Those kind aren't unusual. I'm assuming this is normal. I'm having trouble dealing with it, but y'know.. such is life. It has been going on for about 5 months.

Thanks again!

JJ, Those kind of tantrums are normal (at least in my house.-)) One minute they desperately want something and the next minute they don't want it at all. Yesterday my ds wanted to take off his t-shirt, but at the same time he didn't want to take it off at all, so in the end he had major tantrum with t-shirt around his neck. He was absolutely furious. Bless them, they just get locked into these moments sometimes.

Aloha, my ds is not very good at steps either. He also crawls and could fall any time and is incredibly clumsy.....

soupy- a couple of people have said that- about ds2 sounding like ds1. My Mum and Dad think he doesn't talk becuase he doesn't know he has to. I don't agree with them I think the reason he sounds similar is because they both only use the early speech sounds - da da, ta, ma and vowels. The difference is that ds2 can copy and say other sounds in isolation- eg sssss whereas ds1 can't. I think ds2's just a late starter- he chatters away and answers sentences with sentences of babble.

The other intersting thing is that they use totally different words, so while ds1 will happily remember and use words like trapezium, equals and divided by (seriously), ds2 uses useful words like yes, no, more and again. Just to give you some idea ds1 has never said yes or no, but was saying trapezium (da dee dium- used aprropriately) at 2. This sort of bizarre choice of vocab is fairly typical in autism though.

I hope I didn't come accross as showing off. My ds is a good talker. I know he is. I talked early too (and still go on and on and on ) I also know children who don't talk as fluently at the same age. However, he cannot put a two-piece jigsaw puzzle together (just looks at me as it to say 'why?" is terrible at making brick towers, and lots of other things like that. And yes, Jimjams he does have short (and fat!) legs, and yes, Fairymum, he falls over a lot too. I suppose I don't think about his speech so much because he's chatty but I am always getting the puzzle out! I keep having to remind myself, 'they are all different' and to relax. Which is a luxury in itself, I know.

Aloha, my son can go up stairs better than your son, so there. Just teasing, I didn't for a minute think you were bragging. I look at it this way: in a week or so, I'm going to be hit with a number of kids the same age as my son who are a lot further along that mine. Instead of the visceral "oh shit something's wrong" reaction, I got to ease into the idea that he's normal but a little behind, due to a post on a message board. Not sure if that makes sense, but this has made my life easier.

Fairymum, thanks. When will it end (says she in an overwrought very dramatic voice)?

Jimjams, your son sounds like he likes math? Does he like long stories? My favourite when I was little (although older than our sons) was The Phantom Tollbooth by Norton Juster and just recently I've read The Number Devil by Hans Magnus Enzensberger. The Phantom Tollbooth is the easier of the two, although it's too much for my 5 1/2 year old at the moment (although he wouldn't know times, divided by or a trapezium if they ganged up and bit him in the bottom). Sorry if this is way off base.

Yes, JJ: lots & lots of little tantrums are normal at this age!!! Over the silliest things, too. DD wanted to wear sunglasses to bed last night & had a good fit when I said no. She'd just go mad trying to keep them on sitting her face properly while tossing & turning to get comfortable.

Not sure he likes maths JJ- just shapes. He's just very visual and has a ridiculous memory so he remembers words like that (and names if he sees them in a photograph).

He doesn't really like stories- he hasn't got enough language. He likes some of the baby dr Seuss books that rhyme (left foot left foot left foot right), but I wouldn't say he understood what they are about.

I'll remember the books though - if his language ever develops then I'm sure it would be the sort of thing that he would like.