Wont sleep - i just shouted at DD

[daystosummer]

I am so frustrated with DD who just isnt sleeping. i dknot know what to do anymore. she will lie there awake for hours. she goes back to school next week - dont know how she will cope - at thsi rate we will be lucky if she has 7 hrs sleep - she is only 8.

i am about to just order melatonin - have a paed appt but not until week after next - not sure i can wait that long....someboy talk some sense into me

that's not so bad is it? ds(9) finds it very hard to drop and and can lie there for ages

Er... Shouting at her isn't going to make her miraculously fall asleep you know

Will reading help her nod off? It used to work for me and I was a terrible sleeper as a kid

What's the problem? Is it getting off to sleep or staying asleep?

if she's just lieing there awake then at least she's getting rest even if not sleeping

Is she being bullied/ worrying about going back to school?
Does she have a set bedtime routine? Bath book bed?
Milky drink?
Sleep in the daytime?

MadAboutQuavers - I'm sure you didn't mean to sound sooooo patronising. I'm sure that daystosummer knows that shouting doesn't help but it's just frustration. I'm sure she feels terrible enough without your somewhat sarcastic tone.

Daysto summer- I'm in the same boat as you. My 2 year hasn't slept well since he was born. We've tried everything and nothing seems to work. We suspect night terrors and are going to get in contact with a sleep clinic. He has severe eczema which also keeps him up. All I can say is hang on in there. I would say exercise does seem to help my little onr but he's 2 and things might be different for an 8 year old.

Please don't beat yourself up. You love dd your just tired and believe me sleep deprivation is one of the worse forms of torture. Big hug to you. Just think in 5 years the problem will probably be waking her up!!lolol

Maybe you should find out if something is worrying her, or if she is scared of going to sleep.

Also, switching off TV, having a long bath, reading to her.

Maybe she could read herself to sleep, or listen to music? That would distract her from disturbing thoughts.

Does she have a night light?

Is she tired in the morning, because maybe she is someone who doesn't need much sleep?

Hope you manage to get some sleep yourself. Good luck.

My solution has tended to be to assume that they are getting rest by just lying there, so I don't keep checking up on them. In fact, I used to suffer dreadfully from insomnia myself until one day (and I was well into my twenties) my own mum told me that she always enjoyed lying awake in the night, "I lie there and stretch myself and think how lucky I am to be in this warm, snug bed and not have to get up for hours". That was a totally new take, but once she'd said that, I stopped worrying about not being able to drop off, I decided it didn't matter- and I started falling asleep naturally.

I'm afraid I did mean to sound sarcastic. What's so frustrating about an B year old just lying there unable to go to sleep? If the OP chooses to get very stressed about her quietly lying there, she shouldn't take it out on her DD

Of course, if she's not just lying there and attempting to get up all the time, then I totally agree that's frustrating and I would probably shout too

Zola, I think you're comparing apples with oranges to compare a 2 year old to an 8 year old trying to go to sleep, it's completely different IMO

Cory, that sounds like good advise. I would still be inclined to ask if everything is alright etc.

MAQ - I don't want to ambush this thread but I guess I am. 2 year olds and 8 year olds are different. What's similar is the frustration as a parent of not knowing what's going on. Although, she's awake, why is she awake? Is she alright? Pure frustration. Many of the things that we as parents get stressed about don't make sense but it doesn't stop us from worrying and stressing.

We are all different so what might not make you stressed may make someone else stressed. The point of forums like mumsnet is to offer support and a little bit of advise.

I was the same when I was young! I'd lie there for hours, reading helped sometimes others nothing... My mother got lots of lavender stuff and put essential oils on my pillows and on the light bulb in my room and got me an electric blanket when I was older so I could feel snugly wrapped up. And some of these things helped but I always always slept much less then I really should have it was just so hard for me to get to sleep! I'd worry about the time passing and having less and less time till I had to be up for school etc and that made it far worse, so I can imagine if my mum had shouted it would only have made it worse. Sorry really not tryin to get at you, I'm sure your at your wits end but I would try to stay away from starting her on med's etc I would highly recommend going the alternative route and trying sleep essence or child essence, they could really make a big difference, they help a lot of children. Best of luck

A good paed should help you to understand the problem with a good assessment of the situation. I have suggested some things to (re)consider and hopefully help you along with getting this sorted.

You will know better than anyone what has been tried and worked/not. But like a lot of approaches with kids sometimes it isn't what's been tried but how. So it is always worth retrying things such as those below.

The things I would want to consider initially are:

1 sleep history - has this always been the pattern, or has it changed? (Possible reasons why)

2 the child's response to the lack of sleep (are they anxious, unable to wind down,)

3 mental stimulation

4 physical stimulation

More re 3) and 4) what is the likely impact of these on sleep regulation? For example, mental stimulation - tv, computer games, other electronic games need to be minimised when trying to look at improving sleep patterns. (TV can interfere with melatonin regulation - also computer games).

Physical stimulation - presence of caffeine in the diet (chocolate, cola, etc). Also is it worth reducing refined sugars temporarily and see if this has an impact? (Wont work if there is high levels of eg tv/computer games though). Sugar/additives in sugary things could be stimulating.

Is the child getting a minimum of an hours physical activity? If so, could try increasing this and then consider the impact. (Try for period of time to get a reals sense of the potential impact eg a minimum of eg four consecutive days).

Re-establish a bedtime routine that winds the child down. No stimulants (ie no tv two hours before bed, no hot choc etc). Keep to the routine, even if you are tempted to bin it (as I have when totally exhausted with a poor sleeper). Bath, book, bed is a good one. Keep the same bed time.

Apologies if this has all been tried. I don't know the details of the situation, and I totally empathise with the frustration of having a child who sleeps poorly. And you are right, she will be much more able to manage the challenges of school with a good night sleep. Try not to get too hung up with this at the moment. Aim to increase the amount of sleep she gets over eg a week, and see how it goes. Good luck.

I was also rubbish at falling asleep as a child.

I think a really strict bedtime routine is important, same every day (to start with don't vary it at all, even weekends). Start bedtime earlier so she has plenty of time to wind down, read etc. and still hopefully drop off at a reasonable hour.

My son can be an hour before he falls asleep. As long as he's not mucking about I stay away.

I haven't done this with my son yet because I'm not sure he's old enough to understand it, but when I was a teenager my mum taught me a relaxation technique that worked wonders. I think it comes from yoga. When you're lying down in bed you start at your toes and you clench the muscles tight and then relax them. You focus on them relaxing. You go from your toes all the way up your body slowly relaxing. I can get to a point where I can't feel my body - like it's gone. Then you relax your mind thinking of gentle things and...it's morning and time to get up.

All you can do is provide the right environment and the routine. It's the old horse to water thing.

If you are worked up, she will get worked up. Any insomniac will tell you that getting worked up and trying too hard has the opposite to the desired effect.

Thank you all for your messages. Was a desperate message. Have followed all good advice for years. Good bedtime routine bath, book, bed. No tv 1 hr before no caffeine (cola etc is never taken). No current worries. Have had plenty of chats on this throughout. Plenty of physical exercise every day. Have used calming natural remedies ie lavendar, flower remedies, calm music, massages. Am not for medication. Am considering melatonin but want professinal advice as have read enough about possible side effects of this eg delayed puberty and the fact that this is not proven enough. Original post was born out of frustration and helplessness. Of course I know it is completely wrong to shout. I know I shouldn't have. I guess I turned to this forum as an outlet. Thx all for your advice.

Cows milk contains a small amount of melatonin, especially when warmed up. Maybe a drink of that in bed would help? Nutmeg and cinammon are quite relaxing and taste nice and cosy :)

I use the yoga thing wannabeglam suggested, it's really good. Also visualisation - imagine you're lying on a beach, you can hear the waves, feel the sun and sand, smell the coconuts etc...

I had terrible insomnia, though mostly in my teens and early twenties. A friend taught me a relaxation technique which was to fix your mind on one particular image for as long as possible, then just let your mind drift. If you've held on to the image for long enough, at that point, you just drift off to sleep.

I didn't think it would work, but I gave it a go, and it did. I didn't suffer from depression or anxiety, but my brain would just whirr for ever, often with absolute trivia, and then I'd start worrying about getting to sleep....

My 6 year old is the same. Her mind races at night and she can't switch off.
Someone suggested talking books. I found a Roald Dahl CD of the man himself reading his own stories. He had a very soothing voice and it seemed to do the trick!

Good luck

It may be that you will need to just accept it as being her makeup and try not to worry (easier said than done, I know!).

My DD1 has never really slept, right from a baby. Her bedtime was appallingly late right through primary school because if I sent her too early she would get in a terrible state about not sleeping and end up later to sleep than if I let her go later on.
She's now 14 and always, always awake later than me. She goes to bed but she doesn't sleep. I can hear her moving around in there now - and she has to be up at 6.30am. She probably had 7 - 8 hours a night max at your DDs age and frequently only 6 now.

I know this isn't ideal - but I haven't found a solution. Having said that, she's healthy and active, dances, ice skates, has seemingly boundless energy.

Only two things I might possibly attribute to the lack of sleep. She's only 5'3'', and at nearly 15, I don't think she will grow much more now. She's significantly shorter than me or DH and I'm sure the lack of sleep has contributed. Plus, she's only just started to get periods - but that could be all the exercise she does. I have no way of knowing if either of these things would have been different with more sleep - and in the great scheme of things neither of them matter really. I don't think I could have changed things. When DD2 came along she slept like a log and always has - so I am reassured it's not my fault!

I'd say, keep doing what you are doing - it sounds like you're doing everything right - and just try to relax over it as much as you can.

My DS used to sleep ok, then one day it changed, he was 5 or 6 at the time. I asked many times what was wrong or if he had had some problem at school, no was always the answer, until one day at pick up time I asked the right question, and discovered he had been bullied (couple of incidents), but if I hadn't specifically asked about that particular person, he would not have told me and I'd have a child still not sleeping well (and waking up in the night as well). This lasted for a few weeks.
May be speak to the teacher, see if he/she has noticed anything. That could be the answer.