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Behaviour/development

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When children go way way beyond stubborn...

13 replies

StillSquiffy · 01/10/2010 15:51

She's only 4 but it was a thread about teenagers that got me thinking about my DD and her behaviour, and I would appreciate some collective advice.

She's a sweetheart and everyone adores her. BUT she is also wilful beyond anything I have ever seen ,and beyond anything that anyone in my family have seen either. She can keep a tantrum up for more than 4 hours at a time (will sometimes take a nap then wake up and carry on). She will be deligthful one second and then scream at the top of her head at you for a random reason - perhaps starting down the stairs in front of her, or cutting her toast without asking her, anything really. There are no triggers (sometimes she will wake up, look around the room and try to find somethign random to scream at - I will watch her eyes go round the room looking for soemthing to whine about before she screws her face and screams that the curtains aren't pulled properly, or the teddy is on the floor or something). Yet on some days (and with some people) she is a darling. I am sure her teacher for example would struggle to believe me if I told her how she behaves outside the classroom (although the school have themselves commented that she is very strong-willed and 'strong of character').

She hits, she screams and nothing stops her. She doesn't care if she's on a naughty step (something I only turned to in desperation and have found useless) and she will sometimes hit me and then go sit on the naughty step before I get a chance to put her on it.

My DS was bought up on 'unconditional parenting' principles and it worked fine with him but DD went wild with that type of approach when we (briefly) tried it, so we've had to change tack - she would happily stay up all night just to prove a point, for example, and the unconditional approach had us once taking her on a car journey naked (that was the point at which I threw the book away). Trying to give her partial control over certain things doesn't work either - she wants total control over everything.

Having read a dozen books on tantruming/controlling behaviour and strong-willed children, I have perservered for months on the 'not giving in' approach, and I get nowhere. And I know that part of the reason for this is because she does sucessfully manipulate other people and I am sure she thinks that if she carries on she will eventually be able to manipulate me. But of course some of the manipulation I can't control (and that gets more the case the older she gets and the more interactions that she has).

Now that she is of an age where I can discuss things with her I tell her always how much I love her but that I don't like some of her behaviour and sometimes she says that she doesn't like being naughty. If I ask her why she was naughty she will tell me that she is having a 'yellow' day.

My DS is older and will often try to talk to her which works sometimes but it breaks my heart when he tries to help (he often tries to give her his pocket money 'to stop her crying'). We don't smack, or scream and we are always scrupulously fair in terms of the attention and rules we impose on both DCs. They get loads of cuddles from both of us and every weekend we split them up at som epoint so that each of them get 1-1 mummy time or 1-1 daddy time. They eat well, have lots of activity in their lives and are totally normal middle class kids, except for DD and her rages.

What to do? Will she settle down as she grows up? Should I discuss this with someone? I don't think there's a label for her or that she needs treatment, but my worry is that if I don't raise her appropriately then it might not change and I will have failed her. Any ideas, or similar experience?

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RuthChan · 01/10/2010 18:53

Hi Stillsquiffy

I'm afraid I have no advice to offer you, but I will read this thread with interest.
I have a DD who is almost 4.
She too is prone to the most horrendous tantrums and I too have run out of ideas. I have run out of patience too, waiting for her to grow out of them.

I hope someone else can come along with some good ideas for us.

jaffacake2 · 01/10/2010 18:57

Hi does she have the same screaming tantrums at school?

Acanthus · 01/10/2010 18:57

She's your second child so I would trust your instincts. (It does sound out of the ordinary to me.)

Mine are now 12 and 10 and I would say that the strong-willed grumpy toddler that I had is now a strong willed grumpy 10yo so not much has changed. Equally, the sunny, amenable, chatty toddler is now a sunny, amenable chatty 12yo... You get my drift.

Exogenesis · 01/10/2010 19:00

Again sorry no advice, but, I would like you to know you are not alone my DD (also 4) is the same except the behaviour spills over into classroom. I will be watching with intrest.

Spoo · 01/10/2010 19:07

Your daughter sounds like my DS1, He is 5 1/2 now and a lot better, but still can have terrible tantrums. I do not think there is anything wrong with your daughter, I think she has a good strong personality whcih is no bad thing. The approach I have with my son is to have clear boundaries. We have written rules in our kitchen. Also we allow him control over other aspects of his life that really aren't important to me. E.g. at weekends he wears what he likes, within a list of items he gets to choose what snack he takes to school. I might be wrong but I imagine your daughter is reacting to a lack of control that she feels she has on her life and might respond with not only clear boundaries but with allowing her some control over some aspects. Only you can decide what they are.
We are getting there with our eldest and he is a challenge at times. We have recently introduced a bead jar with beads put in for good and helpful behaviour as well as beads taken out (after warning) when behaviour is not good.
Well done for keeping calm. It's not something I have been too good at, but I am getting there.
Another quick thought - has she just started school because that can really change there behaviour and make them feel they have less control over their lives.

Spoo · 01/10/2010 19:09

P.S. I would agree with Acanthus. I think that personalities are mainly genetic and are no reflection of your parenting! It takes having two kids to realise that I think.

Spoo · 01/10/2010 19:10

P.S. each bead is worth 5p called in at the end of the week.

colditz · 01/10/2010 19:15

In this house, when you are screaming, you scream alone. Screaming at someone is not social behavior and is not tolerated in a social setting once you are able to use words.

tantrums that have no target will peter out on their own.

my friend had a 3 year old screamer, and despite her insisting that she did ignore him, she didn't, not really. She'd ignore him for 15 minutes then attenpt to mollify or discipline him. So he knew that if he could only scream for LONG enough, he'd get a payoff in the end.

Then she saw a child behavior specialist, who told her to go and lock herself in the bathroom (as she couldn't bear to put him in his room aloneHmm) and not come back out until it's quiet outside. She did and it's working.

WinkyWinkola · 01/10/2010 19:32

StillSquiffy, you sound like a very kind and patient mother. I wish I were more like you!

However, I agree with Colditz. Attention is fuel to this kind of behaviour.

My ds1 was incredibly defiant, OP and, like your daughter, would look for stuff to rage about or create issues e.g. saying he'd finished his breakfast, watch me clear it all away and then have an almighty screaming fit for ages about not having finished his food. It is so so stressful and upsetting to walk on eggshells around someone in the house in case they rage.

It seems to me that your dd knows what is expected of her. And if she doesn't do the stuff that you expect of her, then start to take away some of her favourite stuff, be it toys, telly or a story at night. Do not capitulate on this. Be cold, calm and firm. It will take time for her to get the message that you mean what you say and that some behaviour is just unacceptable and it won't receive any attention apart from negative results.

Sometimes I think giving some children an inch.. .. .. I went the other way with my ds and let him only have control over certain things if he behaved. I was shocked by his behaviour. He sought control over every single event in our house. He still tries to decide what we're all going to wear and luckily now doesn't rage and rage if we don't do as he tells us.

This has gone on for over three years now. At its worst, he was having 16 (I counted) major tantrums a day. He's five and a half now and I genuinely think he can't be bothered to battle anymore. He still says no when I ask him to get dressed and get ready for school but I just get on and leave him to it and he actually does get dressed in the end. He's learning too that his friends at school won't put up with his controlling ways either.

Also, if he misbehaves and starts shouting and screaming, I just put him on his bed and leave him to it. It's kind of boring and pointless if nobody is paying any attention to your theatrics.

What do you think?

StillSquiffy · 02/10/2010 12:39

Thanks everyone, sort of reassuring to know I am not way off tangent and others have had similar.

WinkyW, I can totally empathise with your comments and your DS's behaviour, and am glad you've seen it diminish. My DD does everything your DS did - screaming after you clear the plates, trying to choose our clothes, all of it.

I am very firm myself and put her in her bedroom if she plays up and leave her to it - which is how I know she can fall asleep, and then wake up and carry on with the tantrum. We just put the baby monitor on 'mute' and check every now and then if the lights are still off the scale. We have been doing this for over a year now but still no let up in behaviour (she has now progressed to occasionally throwing her books round the room).

I do think however that part of the problem is that when I am not there she grabs back control and is very manipulative - she doesn't have tantrums at school but I think that is because she gets her own way ( I have asked the teachers to be very firm on boundaries with her). For example, was when she was two and at nursery, at nap time she would go round all the other toddlers covering them up with blankets and patting them on their backs to go to sleep and refused to sleep herself, and all the nursery assistants thought this was a darling thing to do whereas I see it as her overstepping her boundaries and trying to take control and therefore not a good thing at all (especially when her not taking a nap herself left her exhausted). Trying to persuade others though is very tough, especially when she is clambering all over them to give them kisses and tell them how much she loves them and could she please please please have X, Y or Z.

Am reassured that I am on the right track with the firm thing.

OP posts:
Acanthus · 02/10/2010 15:18

Yes you are definitely right (and you were right at nursery too).

Ne11 · 03/10/2010 12:11

Who are the other people that she manipulates? Are they people with responsibility for her? If so, you need to have very firm words with them so that they treat her the same way that you do, otherwise she is just going to persist as she will believe that eventually you are going to have to cave in.

StillSquiffy · 04/10/2010 11:30

Nell,

I know it's a problem when there is inconsistency, and I have tried (and keep on trying). To be fair the people she spends time with with (grandparents, teachers, nanny) all know my feelings, and do their best with her.

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