Understandable but not desirable

[funtimewincies]

I'm after some words of wisdom regarding ds1 who is 3.9. Sorry that it's a bit long.

He was a 'difficult' baby (I was always the parent who had to leave coffee with other parents/parent and toddler groups/visits to friends apologising about my child's screaming/crying and wishing that I'd never bothered). He turned into a stroppy toddler and, although he's never been violent, we found ourselves always treading on eggshells to avoid scenes so that we could go out anywhere. He is now an opinionated pre-schooler who always manages to end up the centre of attention and is extremely contrary.

A lot of the time he is kind, funny and interesting little boy. He's bright and has extremely good language skills. He rarely does anything horrific, but the low-grade annoying behaviour is causing stress all round. It's difficult to give examples without making him sound like a monster, but everything ends up revolving around him and trying to keep a lid on his behaviour.

Through it all we've tried to be calm and consistent. Dh and I kept telling ourselves that 'he's only 1/2/3' and that we were maybe expecting too much. Other family members behaved as if I were a mean mummy but now I'm being blamed for the end result. My parents are in favour of 'a good smack' (I'm not!) but keep handing out the treats indiscriminately. MIL spoils ds1 rotten but then washes her hands when he kicks off.

I suppose that dh and I are feeling at a low ebb and could do with some advice. Distraction never worked and there have always been consequences for undesirable behaviour. We give attention and praise for good behaviour, try to ignore the 'understandable but undesirable' stuff and stop him grabbing the limelight but he's quick to work out that we have to be places and do stuff and can disrupt these.

My only light is that he's not too bad at nursery (he's considered a bit eccentric) so it must be us .

Ds2 is completely different and ds1 is now being compared unfavourably and unfairly. Where can we go from here?

My DD is only 22 mo so can't really offer much advice I'm afraid. Bumping for you though

So he's not violent...just annoying? Can you be more specific please? What is your idea of undesirable behaviour?

My DD is 6 and also annoying...always has been...she's bright and articulate but can freak very easily...among other things...she is also excellent at school and nursery.

My 2 year old is SO easy...I had no idea all children were not like my eldest till' I had my youngest...so..more details please?

I suppose it's the contrary behaviour that drives us nuts. He will always take the opposite opinion, even if it means losing out on something he really wants to do.

For example, if we wanted to go for a day out at the zoo, ds1 would decide just before leaving that;
a) he doesn't want to go or
b) that he's going to refuse to go for a last wee before getting in the car or refuse to put his shoes on.

Actually, he really wants to go but wants to control the situation.

This gives us several options;
a) We call his bluff, ds1 tantrums, and we all stay home (we all, inlcuding ds2 who is 9 months) miss out.
b) We call his bluff, ds1 tantrums, dh stays home (I'm the driver) and no-one has the family day we'd hoped for.
c) We force him to do the wee/shoes/coat thing, wrestle him in to the car (not easy as he's tall for his age) and manage to get on our way with blood pressure sky high.

If we manage to get out, then another example will present itself in the near future. He's brilliant at picking times when ignoring him isn't practical .

My DS 3.1 is just like this when he is tired or hungry or thirsty... could it be something like that?

I would second the pp suggestion he's tired? My ds is only 2.4 but if he's tired he will be an absolute nightmare-nothing is right, even things he would usually really want, or treats like a day at the zoo (as you mentioned). However, once he's had a nap or slept well at night he transforms into a lovely, easy to manage and well behaved little boy.

The difference in him is unbelievable!

Big bump to you.

My DS is three and very similar, meticulous but not consistent-very much about wishing to control rather than what he's actually doing (had a huge tantrum yesterday about being given toast he hadn't made, with mad resolution that he would eat his 'treat' only if allowed to perform a household chore (making more and washing up) afterwards).

Things we have found might help (although I'm sure you'rte doing them) have been to give as much choice as possible when it is possible (e.g. in your situation pretend that he is choosing whether he is carried to the car and then has shoes on or whether he is putting them on first); to ask him to do things to help explain them to his younger brother (he talks through what is going on); and to explain what is happening early and enthusiastically so he doesn't get the chance to get fixed conceptions. Enthusiasm often helps a lot, we've both noticed that the more energetically we advocate something the less likely resistance is (but then who has the energy all the time?)

We've also found (despite laughter form the beat the bugger brigade) talking to him helps. We can, for instance, sometimes get him to use the potty pre-journey even if he doesn't need a wee by explaining that otherwise he'll have to have a pull-up on because the car is hard to stop. We've always tried to reaosn with him, and from about 2.5, he has managed to grasp that some things are not 'naughty' but are not 'done', and indeed has quite a good sense of 'fault'.

Above all, your son sounds quite reasonable to me (although I know your anger and frustration well). He has wants but his life is, from his point of view, arbitrarily controlled. There's no way round this, he'll just have to learn to lump it or negotiate better and will make you suffer, but neither is it wrong of him.

Bumps again, you sound like an ace parent, and admitting it's annoying doesn't make what you're doing wrong, just means you need more support.

Thanks, that's kind of you to say Adela, we're feeling like pretty crap parents at the moment. We always talk through what's happening and give him reasons for why things need to be done and I wondered whether this has been part of the problem. Friends who've gone down the 'because I said so' route seem to have an easier time, or maybe they just had more compliant children to start with .

He is definitely worse when tired or hungry but will do this at any time of day. If he sleeps at all during the day (even a very short nap in the car) he'll be in and out of bed until late evening.

I've just had this conversation which is fairly typical:
Me:What would you like in your sandwich?
Ds1: Jam. I don't want anything to eat.
Me: OK, that's fine.
Ds1: But I want a saaaaaaaaaaandwich! Pleeeeeeeeese can I have a sandwich?

funtimewinces, you really do sound like a very good parent. Fancy being a guardian to mine should some terrible accident strike?

If you choose to do something that others look at oddly, or feel they are, there's no comfort in the idea that this is just 'normal' or a 'phase', it all gets heaped on what you do (which the world does to Moms anyway, but even worse if they aren't quite seen as conforming) and you seem to be suffering from that here. No more practical advice, because am not feeling so crash hot myself, but when I was worried about this under extreme parental pressure (my sister total by/buy-the-book treat/reward/tell off/be normal Mummy) a good friend pointed out that you can't be a decent parent by acting out the role, if you want to be reasonable and offer choice rather than the voice of God then you'll never do the second convincingly, or stay sane if you do. She was very much a voice of God sort of parent, which made it all the better as advice.

And, sometimes, it is worth it. When I picked DS up from nursery there were three kids on the stairs, two having tantrums because Mummy or Daddy let them bounce on the stairs. He was waiting patiently, saying 'I no want bounce because it high and dang-dang, I bounce at bottom'. Watch, the same will happen to you, you'll notice points when he is quietly sensible without intervention when others aren't, and then read threads here when their Mums are worried....

I'm feeling calmer already !

I'm clinging on to the thought that it'll be all right in the end. Dh was similar as a child and his mum took the path of least resistance. She let everything revolve around him to the point that it caused problems in her marriage and she chose not to have another child for many years.

However, dh has bags of quiet self-confidence and manages to combine gentleness without being a pushover. He was also a delightful teenager by all accounts .

Funtimewinces - I was just coming on here to post about my son who is driving me batty. He's 3yrs and we've just had DD two months ago. OK, OK, I get it, he's difficult because of the baby but MY GOODNESS he gets tiring.

Today we've had 5 tantrums - one because I wouldn't let him beat me down the stairs (I didn't know we were racing ), one because there was "too much water in his water bottle" and I refused to drink some (so there would be the "right amount") as well as some more common or garden ones about not going out, not staying in, not eating his lunch and so on ad nauseum.

He is so highly strung and it's very wearing. Just like your son he is also delightful at times, funny, affectionate and very articulate. Oh, and he also doesn't act like this with his childminder!

I did find this book which looks good so far:
www.amazon.co.uk/Parenting-Strong-Willed-Child-Revised-Updated/dp/0071383018
It's a five week process and we're only on week one so we'll see!

Oh yes, and my ILs all think we're inadequate parents too so I've just decided that I'm only going to solve this if I choose to ignore absolutely everyone else's advice, however good intentioned, and work it out with DH, DS and myself. Sometimes just thinking about what other people will be thinking of the situation makes it much more stressful.

Have you had a look at Harvey Karp's 'Happiest Toddler on the Block'? I think it explains the reasons behind toddler behaviour very well and gives some very good solutions to difficulties, as well as lots of preventative stuff.

How about giving him the impression of control with out actually handing it over?
For example, what do you want on your sandwich is too big a question. He wants Jam initially, thne sees something else which 'trumps' the jam and so is confused, if that makes senses? So ask instead...We have jam and peanut butter. Do you want Jam or peanut butter? That way the parameters are defined but he is still controlling the situation. Do you want the red top or the green? Jeans or tack suit? YOU define the parameters that you will work in and are happy with and he still feels like he has control. It seemed to work ok for my two so far anyway!

I know many parents don't like 'labels' but... is there anything on the PDA website which sounds familiar? I know a mum whose DD was dxd and your DD sounds similar.

You have just completely described my DD (also 3). She's always been incredibly strong willed and extremely vocal too. Has a lot of tantrums and has done since she was about 1.

We also go through massive battles to leave the house. DD refuses to get dressed, or put her shoes on etc. Her current favourite trick is to come down in her swimming costume (!!!) 2 minutes before we're about to leave the house. I have threatened to take her to nursery in her swimming cossie but I suspect she would love that and it would only inconvenience the staff.

She also likes things done a certain way and if they're done differently she kicks off.

She also likes to do everything herself with no help, which means she could be fastening up the zip on her coat for 10 mins and getting nowhere fast, but you still can't help and the zip MUST be fastened.

One day I dared to put her toothbrush back in the toothbrush cup for her (instead of letting her do it herself) and she screamed for 20 mins all the way to nursery and all the way into nursery - demanding we take her back home so she could get her toothbrush and put it back in the cup herself.

She also corrects people all the time (even strangers). For instance, someone might say to her "oh that's a lovely jacket DD" "its NOT a JACKET it's a COAT". "oh aren't you a clever little girl" "I'm NOT a LITTLE girl I'm a BIG girl WAHHHHHHHHHHHHH". Sigh. I'm constantly apologising for her but strangely most people find her amusing (either that or they're being polite).

She regularly kicks off in public. And I regularly ignore it all, whilst other people look at me. It doesn't help that she's tall for her age and looks about 4.

Luckily most of my family think the way she is is largely down to personality, not parenting. We have several family members with very similar personalities so usually they just laugh and say "oh your sister was just the same when she was 3".

I'm so pleased that I'm not alone (whilst feeling your pain )!

Ds1 is also tall for his height, he has just started pre-school but we've been getting pointed 'shouldn't you be in school?' comments when out for at least as year. As I said in the OP, his speech is extremely good, so people always judge him as being older than he is.

The link was interesting snowythedog. Section 2 describes him completely and some of section 3 but we don't think that there is anything 'wrong' as such. He's getting better but still a bit 'stuck' in the toddler view of the world that we're all there for his comfort. He even calls it 'ds1 world'.