i need help with my 4.5 year old

[Nixz]

please someone help us!!! My 4.5 year old has always been 'different' to other kids, she has seen behavioural specialists etc, her Nursery told me when she was 3 that they never thought she would beable to attend mainstream school as she could be so difficult and hysterical at times but early this year it all changed and she started to become calmer and have more concentration etc. However her behaviour now is awful. She runs away, constantly argues with us, spits in our faces, goes into absolute hysterics which can last for hours, trashes things etc. She has no understanding of what she is being told off for, can not seem to display 'nice' behaviour and when she has a nice time she has to do something awful for no reason etc etc We need counselling of some sort as i just dont know if im doing the right thing anymore when i try to punish her, i really am at the end of mytether with her. Having her as a daughter has never been easy and i cant think of anything nice about being her mother. She reacts to everything in a way i can not fathom. My family agree, as do friends who have had the pleasure of one of her tantrums. Where can i go for help as a family?

here it is An online PDD assessment- PDD stands for pervasive developmental disorder- a highish score would suggest needing assessment for things like AS/ODD/dyspraxia etc.

thanks jim jams - it suggested no PDD - what is this?
Her Nursery suspected adhd but in her pre school - they said they didnt have any problems as such - she only went for 2 hours a day twice a week though.

Hi Nixz, Your dd sounds quite like my friends son who has oppositional defiance disorder. He is very difficult at home and sometimes it is quite painful to watch, as he can be very abusive to his parents. However at school he is quiet and withdrawn, which is apparently a different way of showing the same problems he has coping with people. They found going to a local autistic support group really made a huge difference, and led to his diagnosis - do you know if you have anything similar locally? It may well be that she only has a few symptoms (I have been told that possibly up to 50% of people have some degree of autism), but that there are better techniques that you can use to help bring about a more peaceful resolution. Good luck, and I really hope things get better for you.

PDD is another term for autism (but will give a measure if autism wasn't dxed because not all criteria were met). If that's drawing a blank it might be worth googling oppoitional defiance disorder (ODD) and also ADHD. Might also be worth looking at things like smeantic pragmatic disorder.

In terms of parenting I suspect a lot of the techniques I have t use with my autistic son would work- things like countdowns to stop activities (for example if I want him off his playhouse roof I'l lsay countdown then off, 109, 9, 8 etc- then he gets off).

Wow - thanks everyone, so do the things ive said she does seem a little more than tantrums and 4.5 year old behaviour?
I have looked into the ODD thing before but DP said that i was just finding things now in desperation and that the Specialist said she was ok. Thing is, we were going through a 'good patch' then and i may have painted a brighter picture. I also feel really guilty when i sit and complain, like i have to say things like 'but its not that bad really' etc!
Nooka - how did your friends son become diagnosed with ODD and how was it dealt with? Did they get guidelines to follow, was the school involved? The bit you say about he is withdrawn at crowds - my dd can go to a wacky warehouse and play away, if it is crowded she just kind of wonders around the edge not knowing what to do and dp and i are at her 'we brought you here to play, go play, do you want to go home etc?' At a party she wonders round the edge of a hall staring at the buffett or collecting balloons then guards them for the whole time. We went to haven this year and for the first time ever, she kind of joined in with the entertainment, she doesnt do discos and stuff like that though, maybe pass the parcel at a push. Im really worried now, but at the same time i feel like im just a mum who has a boistrous child and cant cope so im running to the drs with a 'munchausen by proxy' kind of thing - find me an illness! I maybe waffling, but im a bit shaken, i thought to be honest i mayget some pasta jars and naughty step replies, which she doesnt quite understand and doesnt really care about by the way.

Jimjams - the techniques you used with your son, where they given to you or did you work them out yourself?

Nixz:

I have no advice I'm Sorry, But just wanted to say that you seem like a very strong and balanced mum who is doing everything possible for your children and hopefully with the right kind of help I am sure things will be sorted out.
I have no experience of what you are going through but other mums on here seem to be full of great advice. Keep us posted and keep your chin up :-) xxx

Mechelle xx

Mechelle - thankyou very much, yes you are right, the support the other mums have offered me is really touching and informative.
I dont think we have much choice as parents but to offer the best of what we can give, and i DO think that i may benefit from some help now. I am going to get in touch with my health visitor and ask about some of the things suggested on here and also enquire about some parenting groups which are in my area.
She starts school in a few days so i may speak to her teachers, although part of me wants to see what they come up with before i 'plant a seed' with them, IYSWIM.

I agree with you about the teachers it may be worth seeing if they pick up on her behaviour and see what they suggest. It may be that they have previously had a simular child to teach and could be helpful. Fingers crossed :-) xxx

Nixz- when ds1 was diagnosed we went on a course for parents of newly dxed children which gave a lot of information on dealing with challenging behaviours- but also my son beagn to access more and more specialist workers and teachers and I just copied them. It might be worth looking at books about things like autism as the behaviours she's shown are quite similar (even if the reason for them is different) and she may respond to those sorts of techniques (also there are a lot of books on the subject). It might be worth browsing jessica Kinglsey's catalogue- she publishes lots of books on dealing with behaviour etc (you'll find her on google).

I'd also ask for a referral to the behavioural support team- they may be able to give strategies. As a general rule though I would:

1. start by simplifying your langauge (eg rather than "go and get your coat we're on our way out it;s raining outside" say "name coat"

2. Use countdowns to finish activities or to stop naughy behaviour "eg countdown then tv off 10, 19, 8" etc

3. tell her what to do, not what not to do so foor example rather than saying "stop basghing the tv" say "come away"

You could also look into whether BIBIC could help you- they are very good with challenging behaviour, and allso quite good if you're not sure whether something is wrong or not. Sorry haven't got a link right now- but google again. They allow you to fundraise for the fee - and help you organise that- also provide bursaries. The assessment is thorough and practiical and although they don't exactly dx they can point other pros in the right direction.

Jimjams, thankyou for your support, i have a lot of investigating and research to do now! You have all given me some brilliant routes to take and i shall discuss with dp tonight and make some decisions and contact some people for further help. Thanks once again to you all.

Sam doesn't get the naughty step stuff either, though he came out as moderate PDD which I was actually pleased about as our Paed did DX AS, but didn't seem convinced, IYKWIM. (In fact he said Sam didn't seem to have AS, then wrote to us saying he thought he did, and that some iof his obsered behaviour was clearly AS- like). Sam doesn't have communication delay though, he is incredibly advanced in that way, has been talking like an adult since at least 18 months age.

You should believe your instincts: that's the best advice I think. I really would telephone BIBIC as they will be honest after their long Q+A interview.

It can take a long time to get supposrt for a child with any level of special need: Jayzmummy on this site has been struggling, and we get no help whatsoever yet with Sam, despite his high levels of violence and dangerous behaviour. The thing is to keep fighting. Your daughter may well grow out of it- a lot of kids go through phases, especially IME just before they start school as they are readied for full time education. Bt until she does, keep fighting her cotrner.

I posted a link to BIBIC below, JimJams- did it help you? We are goig soon I HOPE!

Hi Nixz, I think that it was a bit of a struggle for my friend to get the diagnosis, but I know that the Bromley Autism Trust were very helpful. He now sees the behavioural support team, I think. To be honest your dd's behaviour does sound quite similar to their child, but I do agree with Jimjams, sometimes school helps enourmously (especially with children who need routine). My ds was thought to be borderline AS (emotional and communication issues), but now (going in to yr2) everyone seems fine with him, and he has been discharged. It may well be that with a few new techniques under your belt, and the routine of school that your dd becomes an easier and happier person. Good luck again.

Bump!

DD's first week at school is over - just a quick question. What is a baseline test? All the children in her class have had one and her teacher kindly discussed hers with me.

Nixz,
i don't know if this will help but if you look at two of the threads that i have done recently, you will find that i know where you are coming from.
My daughter just turned 5 in august is a real pain and sounds just like yours apart from my daughter is now turning violent.
She has been assessed by the school doc and has suspected ADHD so we are now waiting for the next appointment at the ADHD clinic where they will go through her scores and take things from there.
It is extremely hard work and both mentally and physically challenging, and sometimes i dont know what to do for the best.
If you need to talk, then please dont hesitate to cat me.
I hope that i can be of some help and possible support whilst you are going through all these things, and remember not to blame yourself.
I have had good support from MN and it has taught me that i am not to blame and it has helped to keep me sane.
Butty.xx

Butty, thankyou for your support, it means a lot. She has actually suprised me this week starting school, she has been extremely confident and quite a bit calmer at home. her little mind seems to be ticking over all the time at the moment. Her teacher has said a few little comments to me and has also suggested that she wasnt really ready to start full days this week but my dd was adamant that she was staying for the day and made me make her a pcked lunch so she could have lunch in school woth her friends. The teacher wasnt too happy but i thought that she deserved the chance to at least try it. Do you know what a baseline test is?

I was amazed at her enthusiasm and was certainly going to encourgae it.
I hope you get the answers your looking for Butty, sending you big hugs XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I think that the teachers should not be discouraging her staying at lunch, after all she will ahve to get used to it eventually.
Chloe was good at school when she first started but was always a problem at home and with others. it was only the last term that she started showing problems in school.
I dont know what a baseline test is, as i have only done the conners questionairre and a redoak house questionairre which is a special school in my local area dealing with children with AS and associated disorders.
I think you are doing the right thing to encourage her behaviour and it must be good for her to feel that encouragement as i have only just started realising that it cant be good for chloe always feeling the way and acting the way she does, after all i dont know whats going through her mind.
Good luck.
Butty.xx

Only skimmed this thread, and not much experience in this area, but a couple of suggestions...

A friend's ds had an IEP at pre school due to behavioural problems, which then went across to school as well. The school thay should be able to do something like this, particularly if you are asking for a referral. It also helps to give consistency - you and the school doing the same things. With luck that should improve things, but if it doesn't , i puts you in a better position for moving on. You don't need a diagnosis of anything specific to have an IEP, just to have special needs which need addressing - and these can be behavioural, and if later you feel more help is needed (a statement for example) the sooner you start on the interminable paper trail the better.

I don't know if you've given up on the fish oil idea, but I buy the Boots one. Ds (4) takes it from a spoon - and yes it does still taste foul despite the "delicious orange taste" claims, but dd (18 months) refuses point blank. I mix it up in either milk, or most successfully in sloppy food for her.