Biting- 2 issues, what to do with DS and 'victim's' mother wants to bite DS back!!!

[hairymcleary]

DS1 is 4.2 and generally a lovely, sparky little boy. He's very active and outgoing, but does have a bit of an issue with frustration- ie he gets frustrated and angry very easily.
Anyway, he goes to pre-school and has a good friend there. Friend lives around the corner and we see quite a bit of him- lots of visiting each other and sleep-overs etc. Friend's mother and I also on good terms and help each other with childcare each week.
DS has bitten his friend 4 times now. Each time seems to be borne of frustration- ie not getting his turn or other usual 4 year old squabble.
The 3rd time DS bit his friend it was apparently quite bad (it happened at pre-school but no adults saw the incident, however it left a mark and was on the face). After that incident, we punished DS- no dessert for a week and had a talk to his teachers and DS himself. DS knows that if he's feeling angry or frustrated and can't resolve the situation that he must ask an adult for help.
Unfortunately, friend's mother dropped DS off today and told me that DS had bitten his friend again today at preschool. They didn't involve the teachers. I asked DS if he did bite and he said he did and that his friend was trying to push in front of him up a ladder. I told him that it was not ok to bite and asked him what he should have done instead. He said 'tell a teacher'. Have punished him with no TV for today and again, no dessert for a week. Am wondering what more I can do to get the message across to him? He seems to know that it's wrong and that he should tell an adult if he needs help- so why does he keep doing it?
The second issue is that the friend's mother told me that if DS does it again, she will bite him back!! I'm completely aghast! She said this when she was dropping him off and I wasn't really concentrating and said something like 'oh right, well that will teach him' ,but after she left I stopped to think and have realised that I really don't think that's OK. It's hardly going to teach DS not to bite if his friend's parents are biting him back. I realise she's frustrated that the biting keeps happening (not every day- it's been 4 times over about 5 weeks), but now I'm feeling like I don't want to leave my son alone with her if she's going to bite him! Argh... sorry for long post- does anyone have any experience of this kind of thing?

Ok, so your DS is biting at pre-school now even though he knows to tell an adult if there's a problem and you're punishing him at home? What are pre-school doing about this? How are the teachers 'not involved'? It is their responsibility to supervise children and to take discipline steps if your DS bites. Has your DS bitten anyone else or just te other boy? If just his friend and only at pre-school then the staff need to be supervising them more closely and perhaps encouraging them to play seperately.

I think you are right to discipline at home but would be very careful about spending too long discussing things. The more attention a behaviour gets, the more it's likely to happen again. At four the discipline needs to be pretty soon after the incident and for that day only IMO. When he loses pudding for a week it is a constant reinforcer of what happened, which again increases the attention he is getting. Try to make a fuss every day that he 'plays kindly with his friend', so make sure that you are clear exactly what he's expected to do and give loads of praise and attention when he has done it.

Erm,so biting back. Do you think she actually would do that? If so, then I would be telling her clearly and calmly that you do not think that is okay, in fact is modelling to your DS that if you're cross with someone it's okay to bite them. I might point out that this would be an assault on your child which you would report to the police, although she may also have been in the heat of the moment and perhaps wouldnt really do it IYSWIM. But dont ignore what she has said, I'm sure you'd be pretty upset if she bit your DS and as it stands at the moment it seems you have unwittingly given permission.

Hope this goes okay, try not to worry about your DS, biting is something lots of kids do for a short time.

I agree with the previous post. Dragging out a punishment for a week is probably too long term for him at that age.
I would also be wary of using food as a reinforcer, but that might just be me.

Was the friend joking about biting? Obviously if she really did bite him she would be at risk of attracting police attention/criminal charges.

I agree that you should discuss this with the preschool - one consistent strategy for home and school would be the best way forward.

I would also agree with shifting the focus to being positive - ie reward good behaviour, rather than punishing bad, so each day giving him a small reward for playing well (ie not biting), maybe a sticker or something.

Loads of ways to deal with and some fab advice above but please KEEP food out of it !!! the banning desert is possibly setting your son up of some major food issues. Talking from experience! withdrawing TV etc and emphasising the positive much better ;)

Okay my point of view. A week is too long to punish a 4 year old. Don't set up food as reward or punishent, it can lead to eating disorders.

If she bites your son that is criminal assault.

What is the pre-school doing about this? Why are they not noticing these incidents? Do they record incidents like this?

You need to work with the pre-school with a set policy on how you will deal with each incident. I am surprised that your son can explain as clearly as you say why he bit his friend some hours before (my 7 year old struggles with this).

I would actually make the punishment fit the crime, and if he attacks this friend then he cannot see them for a while.

Also is your son being rewarded for biting, by being given a lot of attention?

My sister in law bit her son once (hard), to give him empathy as a serial biter. It did stop her son (apart from the odd slip up) and I am not saying I support it but just playing devil's advocate and showing you this can be a recognised 'approach'.

I certainly don't think this mother should be biting your son, whether you 'agree' with the above 'technique' or not.

Other posts have given great advice, I'd stick with that.

I am sure your friend was not serious about biting your son but I can imagine her frustration: is it just her child that your DS bites? She must be wondering whether she wants this friendship between the two boys to continue! She is probably even more frustrated if the pre-school are not doing anything; my DS was the target of a boy who bit at nursery and I remember the distress at the bruising and the frustration with the lack of action by the nursery very clearly.

I think you need to make an appointment to see the pre-school staff to discuss ways of resolving the problem - draw up an action plan together - and I agree with others that your punishment needs to suit the behaviour - so, if your DS bites the other child, he is not allowed to go to his house to play for a set period of time.

The thing I am shocked about is not the biting (although that's not good), but a responsible adult telling you she will bite your DS if he bites her child again. That is totally unacceptable. I'm sure you would know if she was joking or being serious?

I believe that certain serious situations call for drastic measures, and understand pearlsandtwinset about your sister in law. My mum bit me once, as I had bitten her, and I never bit again. So it can solve problems, although I would say only for biting rather than other behaviour such as hitting. But under no circumstances should such a drastic measure be taken by ANYONE other than the DC's parents. Not even grandparents!

Totally shocking. I would definitely raise the issue with her, perhaps without the DC about, and explain how although you appreciate how frustrating and upsetting it must be for her, to attack your child would not be acceptable at all. Don't leave the prospect open ended though, tackle it straight away.

I imagine the mother was just speaking out of frustration, surely she wouldn't really bite your son? I don't think it would necessarily be a terrible thing if her ds bit your ds back, if I were her I wouldn't prompt him to do so but I would hope he would.

I agree though that the pre-school needs to be doing more to tackle the issue, if that's where he is biting that's where it needs to be primarily dealt with. I'd follow up at home by saying he couldn't have friends to play if he didn't play nicely with them.

My dd was a biter, she was slow at developing speech and bit in frustration and will still bite if she is in a fight with her dbs, although she doesnt bite anyone else now.
She once bit a child in nursery (day care not school) and I was mortified as it was on the face of the other child and left quite a bad mark. Nursery were fab though and kept an eye on her and put in immediate sanctions such as time outs/ naughty chair etc.
I can sympathise with you and your friend, but I think the preschool should be dealing with it more actively.

Have a word with them and ask them to keep and eye on your son - you never know if its only this particular boy, maybe they wind each other up. Also not saying that the other boy deserves to be bitten at all but perhaps he provokes your son on purpose, so maybe they should be kept apart. Maybe they see a bit too much of each other and it might be a good idea if both of them are encouraged to make other friends.
The staff are there to do a job and they should intervene if necessary. I also think that any sanctions should be immediate and instigated at the preschool and not delayed and left for you, although they should tell you about it.
I am a bit shocked by your friends comments though, - was she serious?
I can understand her frustration but thats a totally inapproppriate response.

She should also approach preschool to ensure that they act to deal with these incidents - even if not witnessed by staff.

hmm

i think the pre-school need to be a bit more pro-active.
if your ds is particularly targetting this little boy then they need to be keeping a closer eye on them both and preenting this from happening

i don't think no dessert for a week is a particularly helpful punishment. in the heat of the moment he won't remember this. and you end up still punishing him a week later when his memory of what happened is fading.

I find no TV is a much better punishment, and do agree that preschool needs to sort it out.
I'd actually be fairly mortified if a 4 year old was biting.
We were on the other side. DS1 was being bitten by one particular child at nursery and nursery seemed unable to do anything about it. Anyway after the fourth incident in a couple of weeks, i told DS he was allowed to hit the little boy if he did it again. DS is usually very gentle - but very big anyway he lamped this little boy (after being bitten again) and he hasn't done it since. Not very PC but it worked.
Personally, I think the other mum was just making the point it needs to be sorted.

Hi, thanks for your replies... it is just one child that DS is biting and I agree that they need some time apart. DS has just started making other friends at pre-school, so will encourage those friendships. I think there is a bit of winding up on the 'bitee's' part- apparently one of the biting incidents took place after Ds's friend was spitting on him.
I have spoked to pre-school about it and they're going to keep a closer eye on them both.

Hi, just thought I'd add my thoughts as ds is (or maybe was??!!) a biter - I've tried no treats, star charts etc etc, bought books about biting, tried talking about it - and it just got worse. Then after chats with hv and friends I finally got it sussed. Whenever he did it I just put him in time out for two minutes and the only discussion between us was me getting on his level and saying in my sternest-don't'f-with-me mummy voice 'we do NOT bite'. Then I left him - no chat, no discussion. I know this is what everyone and all the books recommends and to me it didn't seem much of a punishment as I wanted him to repent and understand the impact of his actions but like your ds he is just acting out of frustration in the heat of the moment so any toddler logic there is goes out the window.

So far I've had 3 bite free weeks which is a bit of a record. Might be worth trying??!

Good luck, and as everyone keeps telling me remember it's just a phase....