What DO you do when your child will not do what they are told?

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I can't physically make her. She isn't bothered about anything we say.

I found this book to be very insightful.

it helped me reframe what I thought was the problem of my DD being naughty, and not doing what she was asked to do, to one where we learned to negotiate and to develop a meaningful relationship where winning and losing are not the focus, and where no one is the boss of the other.

I think co-operation and team work are much more important skills to master and are better and more realistic in this world where power hierarchies and obedience are simply outdated and unhealthy.

D'you know, the world won't give someone "chance to save face", the world won't say "Maybe he's tired"

Nip it in the bud and send him upstairs until he can behave politely.

I use logical consequences - although I stretch it to fit my needs.

so

"If there are toys all over the front room, I don't feel like serving dinner until they are picked up"

"If you are rude to me, I don't feel like letting you sit downstairs with me - are you going to be polite or are you going to go upstairs and be bad tempered on your own?"

"If you mess around in this shop, I won't want to be in town with you any more and I will take you home."

"If you throw food, I will think you are full and I will put your dinner in the bin."

"if you hurt your brother, it won't be safe for you to be in the same room as him and you will have to sit upstairs."

My 4 yr old has been pushing boundaries big time today, and for the last week has been purposfully doing anything I tell her not to do or that she knows is wrong. Also for some time now if I send her to timeout ( usually only for particularly horrible stuff like hair pulling, hitting, pinching) she screams "no I won't go" at the very top of her voice. So I've been picking her up and taking her.( along with screaming eardrum bursting tantrums)

Today after she decided to up the anti (flinging mud at her bro and sis )I had a chat with her that went along these lines...

"Sweatheart, There are 2 ways you can go through life, you can behave nicely and do as you are told or you can do what you want and then we will make you behave and make you do as you are told. The police say that we have to make sure you grow up to be a good person and you have to practise now while you are little".

"Which way do you think we can all have more fun - by you behaving and doing as you are told or by you behaving in a naughty way and us making you behave"?

She decided that it might be better if she behaved, especially as the policeman was on our side.

She's been lovely for the rest of the day, so.....

Was I being evil putting it to her like that?

agree with colditz. tired just doesn't cut it with me. you may very well be tired. but there's no excuse for bad behaviour.
KickArse, we too have had many conversations of 'look how nice life is when you are well behaved'. no no avail.
maybe just too much talking about it , is going on here. i am fed up to the back teeth of thinking about it.
AK says no R&P. lead by example. try to teach them nicely and they will follow suit. i do try. have always tried. but it just doesn't seem to work. i wonder if i am missing something blindingly obvious.
zazen. maybe i need to look at that book. someone suggested the 5 languages of love to me. but that was pointless, because it is written for abused families. dh and i come from loving secure, affectionate families. dh and i give ds's lots of time, physical affection - all 5. so that wasn't relevant to us.
I so wish i had never had children. I don't find it that enjoyable. because i come form a happy , loving family, i always assumed that with a bit of work, love, discipline. we would all be happy and trot along nicely. how naieve i was.

My oldest child is 3.5, but she responds really well to counting to three. I have no idea what happens when I get to three...

I also say "oh look, all these toys are on the floor, they must be rubbish, ok, I'll just go and get the bin" and when she says they aren't rubbish, then I offer to help her pick them up.

Our punishment of last resort is to pick her up and put her in her bed. I know you're not meant to do that, but generally she is tired when she is being naughty.

I also don't let go of whatever I am giving her till she says thank you.

Ooh, and making a big fuss of the baby for sitting nicely or getting dressed works well too.

My Dad used to put my sister in the garden until she behaved. Hmm, that might not be advisable.

Not sure is any of this is any use, I am probably telling you stuff you already know tbh.

I think I was one of the children you are talking about- I remember being utterly baffled at an auntie putting me on the "naughty step". I just sat there and daydreamed. Smacking just made me blame my parents and feel unloved- I never connected it to what I had done. Taking toys away didn't really affect me- I was a daydreamer anyway. My mum once had to buy me new school shoes as she had chucked away my old ones carrying out a threat to put all the things on the floor in the bin. I found that very amusing. I hated socialising anyway, so was quite happy to be banned from clubs and so on, in fact they would sometimes bribe me to go to them.

...I must have been a nightmare!

"...you may very well be tired. but there's no excuse for bad behaviour."
"we too have had many conversations of 'look how nice life is when you are well behaved'. to no avail."

Don't you find those statements revealing? Because you have no tolerance for understanding why they're misbehaving (sorry, don't mean to pick you especially).

Kids need to learn EVERYTHING. I feel like we live in a very intolerant age that makes no allowance for that fact. If an 8-10-12-14yo could automatically behave civilly even when they were feeling exhausted and grumpy they wouldn't still be called "children". Children aren't just innocent creatures needing protection and academic learning, they are still learning everything including how to manage their feelings and work cooperatively even when they damn well don't feel like it.

As a result, they still behave terribly at times, they make heaps of mistakes, a small number with nasty repercussions, they wouldn't be children if they didn't do those things. And we parents shouldn't be expected to be in 100% control of their behaviour either; they are autonomous creatures, we can only do our best to influence and guide. Why can't society be more supportive about all that? :(

I agree Ragged.

You can't expect a child to behave as an adult would or should - they're not adults, they're very different creatures.

' the world won't give someone "chance to save face", the world won't say "Maybe he's tired"'

I disagree. The world is highly likely to give a small child a chance, and to say 'maybe he's tired'

You're talking about adults. Children have huge things expected of them from an early age - long days at school, social awareness and learning, loads of stimulation and input to process and somehow people think because it's a natural thing for them to do, it doesn't make them tired and thus shouldn't affect their level of grumpiness or ability to control their impulses.

Not the case. Ds is not alone in his class, towards the end of term the loveliest, most intelligent, cooperative and 'grown up' kids were all being absolute fiends, and their parents and I all came to the conclusion it was down to sheer knackeredness.

There seems to be a real lack of empathy for what kids go through. They're not allowed to be pissed off or exhausted because that would perhaps unsettle us - it might mean we were bad parents - it might mean they were unhappy. Not necessarily. They're just small and human.

I agree. Also, when I am overtired at work I sometimes have to make an supreme effort to be civil to customers and colleagues. But if I am equally tired at home, I may enough to snap at DH because I know he's still going to love me regardless.

My DCs are 7 and 5 and seem to be able to be polite and well behaved with teachers but they can sometimes be too tired to be like that at home. I feel that as long as they are able to be like that consistently at school, it's enough to expect at that age.

I may relax enough to snap at DH

Prairie day? My DCs are only 2 and new born, so j haven't actually done this yet, but family I nannied for used it.

Also, those who are worried about children snapping cos they are tired, fair play - I get ratty when I'm tired too!
Maybe we need to adjust our schedules a bit more to allow some extra 'downtime' or get them to bed earlier?

oblomov, There are days when I am holding a screaming toddler to prevent him from hurting himself and I think, yep this is horrible, I dreamed of having a little boy with little blond curls, thought I would never ever have one, did get one and he is all of that, but he is also a little boy who tantrums to the point that he goes blue and has to be resussitated, Anything can set him off, tenterhooks is not the word for it.

What I'm trying (badly) to say is that I understand your sentiment entirely. But, I'm going to make it right, we will get through this and look back on it. I am determined to be happy :)

When things really get me down, I do a "day out of time" Forget the housework, forget everything, take the kids out somewhere and play with them, and I really mean play with them. If I don't have the fun times with them, they have no respect for me in the times I have to discipline them.

Hope things get better for you.

Being a mum or dad is relentless but also think dh and I sometimes 'overparent' and need to give dcs a little leeway. It's as if we expect perfection and then think we must be resounding failures as parents if we don't get it.

I look back and realise my mother practised benign neglect, and only if blue murder was in the offing would she intervene (but woe betide us if we were ever rude) whilst dh's parents are also more chilled than us and do a lot of encouraging/ distraction and really calm explaining. Then when they really are naughty we can pull out the big guns - think we (well, more dh) was reaching for the big sanctions far too early/over quite minor things, iyswim.

Dinahrod, if this was FB I would "like" your post, you have just described me and dp, Mr Kickarse agrees.

what sometimes helps is the old faithful of treat other people how you would like to be treated yourself. would you like me to stand there and just say NO to you? Why not?

most children think that they are the true lords of the universe and that nobody else's needs or wants are quite as valid as theirs. i honestly don't think they see other people as real as they are. however, it's going to make their lives a lot happier if they can at least try to understand how their words and actions affect other people, both positively and negatively.

I think the thing to realise is that you are only in control of yourself.

if we take the emotional expectation out of the relationship foe eg. they are 'my' children therefore they will do X when I ask them... then everyone might all rub along better.

Think of your children as humans who just happen to be younger than yourself - people who have come to live with you for a short while. They didn't ask to be born to you, you didn't ask for them in particular to be born to you either.

I treat my DD like a team member - she does what we do - she tidies with us: we all have our chores; we all carry groceries; and do laundry. DD helps chop vegetables, and bake also. She's part of the family - not the child in the family.

We listen to each other, and we respect each other's human rights: we never threaten her with punishments in any way. We treat each other kindly, and respectfully. Our rules are pinned up: she had as much say in our family rules as we did.

DD is a 6yo child, who happens to have come out of my womb. She's younger than me because of that, and we look after her and keep her safe until she can do this for herself.

We want her to be able to function as an adult in the world when we're not available or dead or whatever, so we teach her to negotiate, to listen and to speak her mind - not to just do what she's told if it doesn't suit her; or just if it's someone bigger or stronger controlling her; or if she's afraid of punishment.

We hope by emphasising negotiation in her upbringing that later on when she's adult, she won't be manipulated or abused by someone as she will have learned to think her way through things and have her say: and she'll be used to being listened to and to listen.

We hope that 'doing what she's told' won't be a reflex that would lead her into harm: that she won't be automatically geared just to do what she's told, even if it's not in her best interest, or the interests of everyone.
I can't see how that skill could be worthwhile or useful.

Children are not soldiers in the lines, they are young human beings, and they deserve to be taught how to navigate the world with loving kindness, and compassion for their tender years.

The book I mentioned earlier is something of a paradigm shifter, and helps re-frame your expectations of your family life.

Here's hoping!!

I agree -- reframing the picture might be the best way to go in the long run as well as producing far better results in the short term. You really only can control yourself.

When you give orders to children you give away your power. You put the ball entirely in their court. Some will respond as you wish and everything will be as you command, but more often you end up with constant skirmishes and even the odd major engagement when anything needs doing. When orders are issued, the path is clear for insubordination and raising of the ante by the DCs, and endless frustration for the General.

I am very outnumbered by my DCs and I couldn't manage (managerial skills are important here) if I adopted the Top Down model of command, as it only takes one rebel to throw a huge spanner in the works.

I came on here this morning to ask this very question. I feel beaten by my 4.5 year old. I try to be calm and understanding but it does me no good.

His problem is he is tired i know this and I try to be understanding, but the little bugger gets so overwrought by his tiredness that he can't sleep. He gets violent and irrational and destructive. So the next day is worse because he's even more tired than before. It's a vicious circle that I can't get off.

Last night was the worst for a long time. And this morning has been nothing but anger and aggression. I'm trying to inflict logical consequences but he doesn't seem to care. However today I took Ds2 swimming and told ds1 he is too tired to come. He has Gond in the crèche vim hoping this will make a difference.

I know how you feel oblimov. I refuse to accept I can be this beaten by acemall child yet here I am. I bought if I loved him it would be enough! This parenting lark is hard!

Bloody iPhone predictive text !!!!!

You are going to be 'beaten' if you see it as 'beaten', and keeping on trying to enforce consequences for someone who is tired and (like all children) fundamentally irrational is a long way from logical, as well as a sure way to end up with a stalemate and the breakdown of good feelings between you and your DC. Tackle the tiredness first. You are probably tired yourself too, and on edge.

Would you feel hard done by if you were punished for tiredness? Hunger? Would you feel co-operative and understood and as if every day brought the possibility of a win-win situation?

You will catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar goes the old saying.

Mathanxiety you are very wise. I saw my health visitor today who has booked ds in for the sleep clinic. I think she thinks he's a bit too old but it's worth a go.

We have had a better afternoon. I don't want to battle with him and this afternoon seems to be better. We have made biscuits

He told the health visitor that he can hear our tv after he goes to bed. This isn't true but the real issue is that he doesn't want to go to bed as we are still up and about.

Suggestions for how to explain that he needs more sleep than we do

You are still growing and you grow when you sleep.