Help .... our children are off the rails

[MamiSandra]

We are parents to four children aged 8, 5, 5 and 3. We feel we have managed to get them completely off the rails in terms of behaviour.

Basically, our children do not do as they are told and are constantly bickering with each other, whining, unappreciative and rude. In more detail:

1. Not doing as they are told: This really has become a chronic problem. We ask them nicely to put their PJs on or go the loo before bed and they just ignore us. We end up having to say it three or four times before they will do what we say. More often than not, at this time we will be shouting because nothing else has worked.

1. Bickering: There is jealousy and resentment between our oldest and one of the twins. The oldest will tease the twin because he knows the twin has a short fuse and will flip. They are all jealous of each other if one does or has something and the others don't.

1. Whining: This can start with the simplest thing, for example if somebody didn't get their cereal bowl first, then he or she whines about it and won't stop until we get cross. Similarly, when it is time for bed, they whine.

1. Unappreciative: If they get a gift, they say thank you, but then soon after complain that it is boring. If we take them out for the day (like we do most weekends), they moan that the place is boring, the drive is too long, the food is disgusting etc. They do not look after their belongings.

1. Rude: Very alarmingly, they call us and each other names. The three year old will call us "stupid baby" or "weirdo" if we, say, ask her to come to the bedroom. One of the twins will say "Don't just stand there, get me a drink" when they are thirsty.

We feel we must have done everything wrong and don't know where to start to sort this mess out. We have read parenting books and advice, but somewhere along the lines we must have been really inconsistent and this has caused the whole situation to get out of hand. Now that the horse has bolted, how do we start to get things back on track. Right now, we do not enjoy our children at all. It is all just a huge battle.

We start every day on a clean slate, determined that things will be different. We are cheery at breakfast time and chat with them, but then the bickering starts about who had their bowl first. We say it doesn't matter and ask them to just be nice and not complain. Then we get sulking and the moaning continues, even though they have all been given breakfast. We then say that if the moaning doesn't stop, there will be time out in the bedroom. We put the offender in time out, but they just come back out. We put them back and they come back out. And so on and so on. We start to shout. They stay in, but in the meantime the other children have started some other fight over something else at the breakfast table. We then often have two in time out. Breakfast is ruined.

When we ask them to tidy their toys, they just refuse. We try to say that they must tidy or it will be time out and they then make a half-hearted attempt whilst sulking.
We have to ask them to do it again and again.

I could go on for hours, but that would make very boring reading. I have thought about a parenting coach before, but cannot find any such thing without spending a complete fortune.

Can anyone help?

Thanks.

I would say reward charts with stickers with the treat at the end being a day out if thats what you normally do.

For example:

Reward 1 : Being polite at the breakfast table and eating nicely gets a sticker.

reward 2: sharing, being kind to each other that sort of thing gets a sticker.

reward 3 : (my fav) talking but not shouting gets a sticker.

I would start off with something really simple such as the breakfast one and maybe have 3 things you expect at breakfast. You could do all 3 stickers at breakfast means 10 minutes compueter time or something. If they all get all 3 they get 10 minutes each. (you may need a rota of which order they go in to save further arguments )

When they have got this (prob a week) then start to add expectations. I would simplify the breakfast one to to simply behaving at the breakfast table and add doing what mum and dad ask and being kind to each other. It usually requires a lot of constantly being there to dole out the stickers but they should respond to the positive praise.

Sounds complicated but IME it really works well.

More importantly with 4 dcs that close in age including twins give yourself a break about the parenting as you're want ing to do something about so be proud of yourself

Stop using timeout. It isn't working for your children so don't use it. Try different things until you find something each individual child does respond to.
Oldest 3 children will understand rules - so have a family discussion and establish some family rules.
Focus on praising positive behaviour.
Spend 1:1 time with each child as and when you can.

Do they ever get punished- do you ever take away their computer time, tv, sweets, outings etc etc?

My ds is not the best behaved child in the world but if he ever said 'don't just stand there, get me a drink' he would be talked to first about wrongness of it and if it ever happened again, he wouldn't see his nintendo ds for a month. Same for tv etc. Bickering kids - normal to some extent. Total lack of respect for others- no way.

I'm in awe. Don't have much to offer, daft of me to post really, but one useful thing I got off Cathy Glass's website about what to do when you have to tell children 100s of times before they do something; touch them when you ask them to do it. I have found that to work very well with ds as I can't shout randomly at him, I have to go over to him and speak at a normal volume. I have certainly found it improves his rate of response.

Hope you get some more experienced advice.

yes maktaitai touching boys is meant to be the recommended technique - according to a raising boys traiing session I went to (im an early yrs practitioner!) Also singing a line or using a silly voice works to.

I also find spelling a word helps or reversing first letters as that will get their attention and as activity is not fun it will make it fun.

Or pj time - make it a race lots of giggles and then when its working some days just say 'right pjs on' hopefully they'll automatically do it quickly as think its still a race iyswim!!!

Agree with pp about withdrawing treats.

I only have one young son so don't feel at all qualified to answer, but I wondered if there are consequences for their bad behaviour besides being sent to their room for a while? I find the threat to take away a favourite toy for the day usually works, but you must act on it and carry out your threat.

They are walking all over you at the moment and you are going to have to get tough - take things away, withhold treats and absolutely do not give in.

First I just wanted to say, you are not bad parents. All children whine, bicker, and need to be told to do things more than once. It must just seem worse when there are four of them, it must be really hard. I've got three and some days the family works and other days it doesnt.

For the bedtime routine, have you tried splitting them up and sorting it one on one? eg. get the 8 year old to get changed and ready, then the 5 year old and so on. That way they might listen a bit more.

Also for tidying up with my three, I tell them what ever is left out in 15 mins time will go in a bin bag and be thrown out. I then put the timer on. You have to be prepared to follow through but I have never had to throw anything out yet.

Stickers work well with mine too. They get stickers for helping me as well as good behaviour. Ten stickers means they get a pound for their money box and they usually earn about a pound a week, so that means they earn their pocket money. Stickers get taken away for bad behaviour like name calling.

I know these things won't solve it all but I hope they might help a bit.

I swear by counting to 3. It gives them time to think and decide to co-operate, and a warning of what the consequence will be. Even my 4 yr old with SNs is starting to get the hang of it. She can't quite grasp consequences, but she does know that 3 is a bad, bad, number

Again, not really qualified to help as have 2 DC and the youngest is 5 months, so no behaviour probs. But would second counting to 3 or 5 to get them to focus, and also be very firm. Not just random shouting but very focused 'if you do this then I will.............punchyourlightsout-- shut you in your room until you learn to behave'

Sorry you are having such a tough time, 4 children must be a handful and a half.

oops crossing out never works....you get my drift!

I wonder if you might find it worth your while pasting your OP into a new thread in Large Families? I feel a bit bad posting when I only have one child - the dynamics look so different when you have even two, never mind 4?

actually reading this thread and my advice on star charts Ive realised that although I only have 1 ds I should have one. He is actually quite easy to manage but the doing things first time is non existent not always the best so I think I'll try a chart for this. Good advice zapo.

I have realised this is why the school are fed up with him when I don't see it because I have the time to ask 3 times they don't.

He does actually love the schedeule he has at school and want one for home so I think this may help too with stickers for following it.

Time to take my own advice

Mamisandra hows the last few days been?

Hi everyone

Thank you for all your messages.

We have just returned home, having been away for the last 6 weeks. I have lots of catching up to do in terms of reading all your replies.

Thanks so much and I will get back to you.

Sandra