"Don't look at me!!!"

[whethergirl]

My DS aged 5 has a habit of demanding "Don't look at me" when he is upset, especially not getting his own way, or even "Don't talk to me, I don't want ANYONE to look at me". My mum, who overindulges him in every way, will obey, giving him the right to not be looked at. I tend to just not pay much attention to it, saying something like "Oh ds, no-ones looking at you anyway, now eat your dinner" or even "I don't really want to look at you anyway when you're behaving like this".

My boyfriend, however, thinks that it is not acceptable for him to make these demands and that he is being disrespectful to adults and trying to be controlling because he is not getting his own way.

DS is doesn't seem to be able to differentiate between people laughing at him or with him, so if he says something cute or funny and we laugh at him, sometimes he gets the hump and might say "Don't laugh at me". I then try to explain that we are laughing at him in a good way (but he insists that he doesn't like it).

My boyfriend's attitude is more that we are adults, and a five year old shouldn't be telling us not to laugh, talk or look when we want to.

Opinions?

My 3 yr old does this too. I think it's embarrassment and also not wanting to have to see yor face when you are disappointed with him.

I tend to do what you say and say 'noone is looking at you'. I'd keep doing what you're doing.

hmmm. It sounds to me like he just doesn't know how to handle embarrassment/shame/shyness whatever.

My DS has said things like "tell that man not to hello me" when we had a tiler in the kitchen.

I wouldn't make a big deal about it; I don't think he's actually being manipulative, he just doesn't know what to do with his feelings.

IMHO it's a gradual process of talking through emotions with them, so that eventually they can identify and handle how they are feeling. So lots of, "it's ok to feel worried, I feel worried too sometimes..." or whatever.

i think your boyfriend is the one trying to be controlling!!!

when your ds does something funny does your boyfriend have a go at him manipulating you by trying to make everyone laugh? no, thought not

your son is well within his rights to request that people don't look at him if he is upset or angry

I wouldn't particularly want people looking at me when I was upset either.

In our house "Don't look at me" just means that the person wants/needs a bit of time to process things and calm themselves down. It's not about being controlling. I also don't think your ds is being particularly unreasonable in not wanting to be laughed at, whatever your intentions.

If you follow your boyfriend's advice then I think you are in danger of sending a message to your 5yr-old that his own feelings are unimportant.

Yes it is embarrasment, and not being able to handle his feelings at the time. He is quite sensitive and has a hard time when he realises he has done wrong or upset me. In the same way, sometimes it's a struggle to get him to apologise, even when I know he is really sorry, because he finds it embarassing and hard to admit or face up to what he's done. All part of growing up as far as I'm concerned, and dealing with your feelings just a life skill you learn with experience.

I agree coppertop, I'm only just starting to understand how to handle my own feelings of distress/embarrassment etc at the age of 35...

It depends on how he usinng the phrase I think. If he is using it as a 'weapon' to try and stop you enforcing a particular rule/point of discipline, then I probably wouldn't put up with it tbh. If he is using it because he upset and embarrassed, then I would give him the space.

It is is a phrase that my DD has used as well.

I certainly don't want to do that coppertop. I don't feel I pander to ds but at the same time I don't want him to feel that his feelings are not important.

So perhaps a bit of modelling from you and your DP, eg, apologising to your DS when you make a mistake, or letting him see you apologise to each other (or whatever is relevant).

my DS is sensitive and I want him to be able to handle his sensitivities better than I have mine!

Thanks for the feedback. Just had one of those days yesterday! Those fun family days gone wrong!

Had a day out with ds, boyfriend and his dd aged 8.

Ds was over excited and maybe a bit full on with his dd and wanting to talk to her and play with all the time. She just kept ignoring him, shrugging her shoulders when he'd excitedly point something out (ok, he does tend to think that a leaf with a caterpillar hole is the most AMAZING thing EVER) and walking off, feeling hassled by him.

I did feel sorry for him. Then at one point I told him to leave her alone as she was trying to have a quiet moment and he kept tickling her, he ignored me once, I then told him off, saying "No, means no." He then got into a right strop, saying stuff like "he NEVER wants to play with her or ANYONE ever again" which I more or less ignored. But as my boyfriend tried to intervene, ds told him to shut up, which is really unlike ds, in fact it's the first time he's ever even used that word. I immediately told him off, and then spent 20 mins insisting on ds (who was upset and in tears) apologising to boyfriend. He did, boyfriend was really good about it, made it easy for him, gave him a hug etc.

Then about half hour later it started again, ds wanting to play with his dd, her trying to avoid him. So I told boyfriend, it's happening again, ds wants to play with dd, she's ignoring him, ds doesn't realise and doesn't get the hint that dd is feeling irritated by him etc. So he called them over, explained to his ds that she needs to make her feeling clear ie "I just don't want to play at the moment" and ds needs to respect that.

Then 10 mins later, we laughed at ds who said something funny, ds did the "Don't laugh at me", boyfriend said "we're not laughing at you" and I said "Well we are, but not in a bad way, it's nice to make people laugh." DS looked right at boyfriend and said "I just don't want you to laugh at me" and boyfriend said "Oh just deal with it mate" and got into a strop! Telling me later that he though DS was talking to him like he was a piece of shit! (strong words and an exageration IMO ). I mean I accept ds telling him to shut up wasn't on, but I dealt with it. He thinks I'm too soft with ds and told me he thought ds was being annoying for most of the day. (he is usually very good with him and has a lot of time for ds). TBH I found his dd more annoying, who kept ignoring ds and her constant sulky face.
Altho he does say that I can always pull dd up on stuff if needed and if he is not aware.

Maybe this is just a simple case of how different it is when it's your own child and no-one else can really understand your perspective as their natural parent. My natural instinct is to want to protect ds, I really can't help it, but also don't want to be overprotective for the sake of it, and give boyfriend opportunity to speak up when he feels uncomfortable.

Oops sorry for long rant, obviously needed to get that off my chest! feeling quite sad about it today.

ah so this is more about two families learning how to be with each other? not easy, but if you want it to work, it can work

so many dynamics here, but I reckon you can see them all - you've described them in your posts very well.

I know that hindsight is a wonderful thing but in the situations you describe I can see why your ds was getting upset. The dd is allowed to have time to herself when she wants it and your ds is expected to fall in line with that. Yet when he wants to be left alone and not be laughed at he gets into trouble for supposedly treating your boyfriend like shit (to use your boyfriend's words).

And this line here really highlights the confusion:

"So he called them over, explained to his ds that she needs to make her feeling clear ie "I just don't want to play at the moment" and ds needs to respect that."

Yet when your ds makes his feelings clear, no-one seems to be respecting that.

It must be a difficult balance, trying to keep everyone happy. Fingers crossed for you that your next day out together is less stressful.

Hmm.... He didn't pull his dd up for ignoring your ds did he? He just told he that she should explain to your ds more clearly. Ignoring people isn't really acceptable behaviour, its rude.

Your ds is 5 and you spent 20 mins making him say sorry?

"I just don't want you to laugh at me" Why didn't your b/f apologise?

It sounds to me as though your ds feels like his feelings are being put last. He isn't just a child to be put it his place, he is a person with feelings.

You need to sort this out before your relationship goes any further imo.

hi,i feel sorry for your little boy and i think your boyfriend needs to act like an adult.It is embarressment and my son 6 does this to and we dont look at him ,he soon comes round.
i wonder if your bf dd knows it irritates your ds to ignore him/shrug her shoulders and maybe thats why she does it....the reason i say that is because my granddaughter does this to my son if he wants to play, also when my husband used to have his son to stay at ours our son would be excited and want to play and my husbands son would just shrug his shoulders or ignore our son which would then cause friction within the family.
Also i think what you said on your last post is true because its your son you will want to protect him and i think you should .

Thanks AnitaBush, yes I do want it to work, and boyfriend does to, in his words, we can't expect to go out all day long with a 5 year old and a 8 year old and expect no problems. He was apologetic afterwards, but only cos he's afraid of losing me (which I think is the wrong reason), so I don't want to discourage him from voicing his opinions too for fear of upsetting me.

And thanks coppertop, that's a very good and overlooked point. Also at times when she was needing to be left alone by ds, she kept wanting to talk to me (more than her own dad)which meant that not only was ds being rejected by her, but having to share me with her. I think on our next day out, I will make a point that if his dd wants to be left alone, then to let us know, and I will then make an effort to give ds some of my full attention.

Kickarse - Do you mean, 20 mins was too long amount of time to be spent on making a 5 year old say sorry? The next day he did tell her to make a bit more effort with him, although he told me that she shouldn't be expected to play with ds if she really doesn't want to. And yes I agree, the constant ignoring is just rude and disrespectful towards ds. And thank you for reminding me....he is not just a child to be put in his place, quite right. I think boyfriend is a bit more old school than me. DS teacher told me he is one of best behaved in his class so I must be doing something right!

Logi - Yes I really was thinking that yesterday, that I'm sure bf dd knows it irritates him when she ignores him and half the reason why she does it. When bf questioned her "Instead of just walking off/ignoring him why don't you make your feelings clear ie. I don't want to play that game." She said "I don't like to say No to him" - making out that she didn't want to hurt his feelings and I thought but walking off/ignoring him is any less rejection??

Thanks for your comments, I really do appreciate them. I know if I was being an overprotective precious mum (which I certainly don't want to be) I'd be told here, in no uncertain terms! Kind of hurtful to hear that it's sounding like my ds feelings are being put last but good to know I'm on right track by defending him.

Personally I think 20 mins of badgering too long, this is mainly based on my older 3. I've found I'm much better to ask them to go and think about their behaviour and how they would feel if it happened to them, also that it had made me sad. Then I'd have given them a few minutes to think about it, if they looked remorseful I'd have asked for a hug and they would have said sorry 9 times out of 10 without being asked to.........

Its not the parenting technique I used to start with, I was of the "I will tell my children off and they will behave perfectly" really quite strict brigade!

Its a control thing, I used to think I had to control my children, I now think in some respects that is wrong, The only person I can control is myself, my childrens feelings and morals and love control their behaviour.

Sounds a bit hippy, but its working surprisingly well. I used to shout a lot too, and I hardly ever do that now....

To me 20 mins is an eternity to a 5 year old...If you'd naughty stepped him it would only have been for 5 mins...

Sorry if i'm overly blunt, I read your post and just thought, your poor ds. You are deffo on the right track.

Thanks kickarse, you've made some really valid points and especially appreciated coming from an experienced mum of 3.

You're right, 20 mins is far too long and in hindsight I would have dealt with it slightly different. What was ironic, was that in trying to make my ds aplogoise, bf intervened at one point and offered ds sunglasses to make it easier (cos ds said he felt too shy to say sorry) where as personally I think that's pandering and an apology shouldn't need sunglasses. Then when ds apologised, I asked him why he was sorry as I always do because I think it's important to establish that an apology is more than just a word, there has to be an understanding there. But bf brushed it away, and then offered to CARRY ds who then became all limp and feeling sorry for himself (more pandering I personally think). Strange, seeing as he's the one who thinks I'm too soft.

Anyway, thanks kickarse, for you to say "I read your post and just thought, your poor ds" is a bit hearbreaking for me to hear, no-one should think that about my ds because I shouldn't let him be in that position and is good confirmation of what I know and feel is right.

DD (3) refuses to let the BABY look at her when she's upset.

"NOOO, he's looking at me, mummy, stop him looking at me "

I think she feels 'stared out' and wants to revel in being upset without anyone watching her. I take the approach of 'nobody's looking at you' and try not to indulge unless she's really stressed and then I will try not to look at her!

Whethergirl, My intent was not to upset you and I'm sorry if I have. For what its worth you sound like a good mum to me who is trying to juggle lots of different personalities who aren't used to all being together.

I have 4 dc's and it completely changes the group dynamic when my oldest is at school and I'm down to 3, it changes again when dd2 goes to nursery or if ds1 or ds2 falls asleep. They all bounce off each other differently and sometimes it can be very wearing.

I think possibly when the 4 of you are together your ds doesn't know what his place is in the group, its a new situation for all of you, give him lots of reassurance and possibly remind your boyfriend that you all need to give each other (especially the dcs) time and a bit of lattitude while you are all getting used to the new relationships that you now have. He still needs to know he's your no1.

You didn't upset me Kick Arse, the situation did. Yes I know what you mean about the dynamics, amazing how it changes isn't it.

Anyway, just had a very long conversation with bf on the phone, he has had a long think, done lots of research online (went on another parent forum himself!) and has completely admitted that he was in the wrong and is wanting to apologise to ds as well for snapping at him. He said he has forgotten what it's like to have a 5 year old and that ds was just being a normal 5 year old but that he should have known better. He really is very sorry for putting me in that situation and says he has gone from having one child to two children and it's a big learning experience for him etc etc.

We've worked out a few strategies to help with future days out.

Thank you so much for all your support, it helped so much. x

Good Luck whethergirl, hope it all works out for you

My three year old does this when she has a tantrum "don't look at me,or rather DON'T LOOK AT ME,DON'T TALK TO ME" etc.I feel quite sorry for her usually as she gets locked into the tantrum and can't find a way out.I do go along with what she wants up to a point,but I find just talking about something else after a while somehow snaps her out of it.I think she doesn't want to see in my face how horrid she is being!

Funny, didn't realise it was such a common trait in children!