Why is it so offensive to say that a name will date?

[LotusClover]

Hello everyone,

I've noticed on a lot of these threads, some posters get very angry and defensive when someone suggests that a name will date.

Why?

So okay, you might not agree - or even care - that it will date. Fair enough. But isn't the whole purpose of this forum to give our opinions in an honest and constructive way? No one's saying you have to agree with these opinions.

I see posters describing names as "ugly" and "downmarket", and saying that they "hate" them. And no one bats an eyelid. But as soon as you say you think a name is going to date, you have people jumping on your case like you've just committed a crime.

Sorry for the long post, but I feel like I'm missing something here. What's so bad about suggesting that a name will date?

Thank you

Thing is there's dating and dating. I wouldn't particularly like to be a mid 30s Kylie, but I am a mid 30s Sarah and it's totally fine.

That's because Sarah has always been fairly popular, whereas Kylie, Sharon, Stacey, Tracey etc became fashionable quickly and then fell out of fashion as people got bored of it.

so one person's timeliness classic is another's persons dated and dull

I would disagree with this. I think some people say "dated" when what they really mean is "dull".

For me, "dated" means "this is a name that was only ever popular at a certain very specific point in history". So you might say Kelly is dated now, to use an example given above, because nearly everybody called Kelly was born in the 1980s, or you might say a certain name that is popular now will date because you think it will go the same way as Kelly.

But you can't really call a name like Hannah "dated" even if it was particularly popular in the 1980s, because it has also been used throughout history and continues to be used now.

According to Dark Greener, Hannah was ranked no. 62 in popularity in 2018, whereas Kelly was ranked 1436 (so I guess there must be a few baby Kellys around).

When people say Hannah is dated, they don't mean it's dated, they mean they think it's dull and they don't like it. That's not the same thing.

Whether a name is dated or timeless isn't really a subjective thing. The statistics tell us whether it is an enduringly popular name that has been more or less fashionable at certain points in time, or whether it is a fad name that had one brief surge in popularity before trends moved on.

@peperethecat

I see where you are coming from and what you're saying makes sense. To me, Hannah/Emma sound dated as they're tied to my childhood when they were at their peak. I'm guessing we aren't the same kind of age so may not have the same associations. I think they're perfectly nice by the way! I wouldn't be put off a name because someone else thought it was dated.

I am guessing names like Margot and Mila have become popular fast because of the actors or Luna because of Harry Potter? Maybe these are the names of today that will date? I still think they're all really nice names though.

@LotusClover I don’t think it is offensive... I see offensive things on here all the time, but this isn’t one of them. As it’s a given that everyone’s taste is different, there are more evolved and diplomatic ways to give constructive criticism than things like that’s absolutely horrible or that’s absolutely ridiculous... I’m not easily offended but I just don’t engage with people who are unnecessarily cruel. It goes without saying that not everyone will share your taste and feel positively about your choices and I’m all for not being patronised especially when you’re openly inviting opinion, but it costs nothing to be nice and we’re all in possession of the capacity to say things in a civilised way, just some people choose not to because it’s through a screen. But feeling something may be very ‘of a moment’ and therefore date in future is fair comment and constructive I feel, as are concerns about Burdensome alternative spellings, widely known negative associations, name suitability on an adult as well as a child, bullying potential and the like. These are all things you have to consider, and I would imagine why people are asking about the thoughts of others... you can’t expect to ask the question to a group of people and solely get a positive response.... I just don’t like uncalled for nastiness more pertaining to natural variation in people’s personal taste.

OK, here's a question.

What do the following names all have in common?

Elizabeth/Eliza
Harriet
Charlotte
Lucy
Emma
Jane
Caroline
Mary/Maria
Sophia
Catherine
Julia
Hannah
Anne/Anna
Sarah
Eleanor/Elinor
Louisa
Penelope
Clara

peperethecat this is driving me mad!

Most are Jane Austen characters. But not all, I think...

No, you got it. They all feature in Jane Austen, some of them multiple times. (I omitted some that are very out of fashion right now such as Susan, Fanny and Margaret, and the ones like Lydia and Marianne that I think would have made the list too obvious.)

And yet a lot of them have been described as names that were popular in the 1980s (which they were).

These are what I would call timeless names. Even if they're not in fashion right now, they'll never be dated.

I would also add royal names such as Alexandra, Victoria and Alice to the list of names that will never go properly out of fashion.

Personally because I think it is illogical.

If everybody stuck to the classic ones there would be millions of Elizabeths, Katherines and Adams etc. Then they would be common.

My point is, every name has a 'moment', even the classic ones. You could name your baby something lovely (like Eve or Esme) and suddenly there are millions of them around a few years later.

Plus does it really matter if a name dates and someone presumes you're 40 when you are 40? It's not like a classic name makes you any younger.

It is bad advice, I think a lot of people miss out on giving their child a name they love because someone on here pops up with the dating thing.

That said, everyone is entitled to their opinion

I like bog standard names that could be nicknames like Harry / Molly / Sally etc.

My point is, every name has a 'moment', even the classic ones.

They do, but the classic names have multiple "moments" where they are very popular, and maintain a minimum level of popularity at all other times.

Fad names are briefly popular once.

If someone is called Elizabeth or Charlotte they could be a newborn baby, a child, in their 20s, 30s, middle aged, old, a long dead ancestor. You literally cannot tell anything about their age from their name, and you could only make a guess as to their social class.

If someone is called Kelly or Hayley you'd guess that they were born in the 1980s and are lower middle or working class and you'd have a high probability of being right.

My own first and middle names are both on the Jane Austen list I posted above. The middle name was a family name (so it has been used in my family roughly once every 30 years since the late 19th century) and my first name was one my parents chose because they didn't want it to date or for people to make any assumptions about me from my name, and they wanted me to have lots of nickname options. (They almost called me Jessica, which I think has dated a little bit.)

When I was 7 I wished they had called me Arabella, but now I am happy with my name and it has served me well. (And I now hate the name Arabella!)

I may be odd, but I think a name dating is great - for historians especially . It reflects the times someone was born in. Why would that be a bad thing?

@peperethecat surely people find out your real age when they meet you? What's the point?

Well the point is more that I don't have a "Tracey" sort of name which loads of parents must have thought was nice in the 1970s but which makes people go "ugh, naff" now.

And I will never become a meme, like poor Karen.

@peperethecat I see what you’re saying, what about the fashion for old lady / old man names? Definitely popular once upon a time but definitely a solid naming trend for the last decade. People using names that no one could ever imagine coming back at one point , as they were deemed frumpy and dated... I could never have imagined a little Olive or Millicent coming back round for instance, but it’s happened. Nothing is ever new is it, just comes back round again. Now we’re going for names from Arthurian legend or Greek mythology or going back to our viking/ Scandi roots... I read an interesting article once about how socio-economic uncertainty influences trends in all areas ... people crave the reliability and familiarity of simpler times so they find comfort in nostalgia, in all areas, without knowing it... think about 10 years ago and the financial crisis, and everything that popped up from shabby chic interiors, to vintage baby names, to indie bands with a 70s retro sound... we’re all a product of our environment I guess.

@peperethecat

I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that loathe your name. It's all a matter of opinion.

@Edenember not to mention Mabel and Arthur 🙈 I said the other day the 90s names will be back soon! Ryan, Darren, Connor, Louise, Katie, Becky, Leanne etc.

I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that loathe your name.

I'm pretty sure it's not one that provokes that much strength of feeling, to be honest. You might loathe it if you associate it with a person you hate, but then your problem is with the person, not the name.

I see what you’re saying, what about the fashion for old lady / old man names?

That's a good question, to be fair, @Edenember. I tend to think that names which are experiencing a second wave of popularity might hold up better than names such as Jayden or Nevaeh, for example.

People calling their child Alfred or Barbara might have looked at their family tree or watched a film set in the Edwardian period and thought, "oh, that's a nice name, let's bring that one back", so whilst it's not exactly a timeless classic it has some appeal. I guess we'll have to wait and see what people think of these names in a generation or two.

At the moment I can't imagine anyone thinking Tracey or Gary is due a comeback, although tastes do change. A lot of people seem to think of Margaret as an ugly name (I personally really like it), but that can't always have been the case because for quite a long time it was consistently one of the most popular girls' names. I suspect its continued lack of popularity has more to do with Margaret Thatcher than its actually being objectively not a nice name.

@Wolfgirrl Katie is still a fairly popular name. 187th most popular name in 2018 according to Dark Greener, and there will be more little Katies than that toddling around when you take into account all the Katherines (392nd most popular) and Catherines (419th most popular).

And Louise is currently in the top 5 in France and has been for a few years.

People calling their child Alfred or Barbara might have looked at their family tree or watched a film set in the Edwardian period and thought, "oh, that's a nice name, let's bring that one back", so whilst it's not exactly a timeless classic it has some appeal.

People might say that about Jayden in future. Who knows? My grandma couldn't believe Mabel had made a comeback, she said in her day it was awful.

I'm pretty sure it's not one that provokes that much strength of feeling, to be honest

Well people might see it as dull and boring then, and expect a dull and boring person.

@peperethecat

Katie was a lot more common in the 90s. Every second girl was a Katie

People might say that about Jayden in future.

They might. But I doubt it.

Well people might see it as dull and boring then, and expect a dull and boring person.

When so many people of all different ages, personalities and social classes share the name, you would have to be pretty stupid to expect anything at all, which is kind of the point.

Katie was a lot more common in the 90s. Every second girl was a Katie

Yes, it was very common in the 80s and 90s. But it's still common now. And variants of Catherine/Katherine have been common for hundreds of years. That's the point being made here.

Well people might see it as dull and boring then, and expect a dull and boring person.

Is anyone this stupid?

For context, @TerribleCustomerCervix (love the username btw), @Wolfgirrl and I were on another thread the other day where she posted a list of names she liked and I expressed the opinion that they would all date badly, and it descended into a rather undignified spat over whether it is better to be called Katherine or Teaghan.