Charis - just too many pronunciation issues??

[Honeybee79]

DH and I have finally agreed on a name we love. However, how much of an issue do you think mispronunciation is going to be with Charis? The h is silent as in "chorus", or "charisma", but I can see this is likely to be an issue.

We wouldn't want to use Carys instead because we're not Welsh and it's a different name with a different meaning, though perfectly nice, just not for us. DH is a classicist and we both love the meaning and sound of Charis, not Carys.

Thoughts please? We love it but don't want to burden her unnecessarily!

WeSail - I will ask DH for an explanation of why is is not Haris . . . He's is the Classics tutor!

As for those wondering about the "we're not Welsh issue", it's simply because we like and have associations with the classical name Charis and no associations with Wales - yes, no doubt some DNA, but that's not the point when we like a totally different name for totally different reasons!

There are Irish names that I like and would use and am not Irish, similarly some Scots names.

But Charis and Carys are totally different.

OK, so WeSail and also Boo, here is the explanation as to why Charis is not pronounced Haris but rather Caris/Karis, straight from DH:

"It is right that the modern Greek pronounciation of the letter "Khi" (which is written with an "X "in the Greek alphabet) is a "H" sound as in "Harris". However, the name Charis came into English via Ancient Greek, where that letter is pronounced as an aspirated hard "k" sound. The same reason we pronounce "Christ" (=Greek χριστος) in English the way we do."

So there we go! Satisfied my curiosity there too.

My very good friend is called Charis. I think it's a lovely name and she doesn't feel she's had problems with it.

If she is ever asked how to pronounce it she says "It's Charis, like Charismatic", which I think is lovely

Oh thanks Op!! I did wonder if it is an Ancient/Modern Greek distinction!

That's really interesting! Learned something new today!

Me too WeSail!

Entirely up to you of course OP, but no one really knows how Ancient Greek might have been pronounced as it is a dead language. Modern Greek also came from Ancient Greek so I am not too sure I understand the argument that English inherited the K sound unadulterated from Ancient Greek while Modern Greek changed it to a H sound. For me the main argument would be though that both English and Modern Greek speakers would mispronounce the name, which, having an Ancient Greek name myself, is quite a nuisance that a child is saddled with for a lifetime.

Boo, classical scholars do know how Ancient Greek was pronounced, so what I have said above is not based on my "argument" or conjecture. It is based on fact and years and years of classical scholarship - also there are some pretty key differences between Ancient and modern day Greek, also explained above.

However, all of this is a bit of a side issue because if someone pronounced the name incorrectly or asked how to pronounce it, we would just let them know and that would be that. If someone tells me how to pronounce a name then that's what I go with, I don't sit there thinking, "I think they're wrong about that you know . . . ".

I know an adult one. She is known as "Spawn of the Devil" or "Spawn of Satan."

I also know an Australian one who pronounces it "ShAHreece."

Honey however accomplished a classicist one might be the pronounciation of a dead language will always be a matter of conjecture. This is not a critique of your DH or classicists, simply an evidentiary matter. Nonetheless, I am not suggesting people will refuse to pronounce it the Ancient Greek way you like, I am saying that most people will innocently mispronounce it as it is now pronounced differently in both English and Modern Greek. You will have to correct people, some will forget, some won't bother to remember, etc. It will be a life long project of telling people how it is pronounced/spelled. "Charis, pronounced the Ancient Greek way" might be a sentence you have to clarify fairly often but if you are happy with that, go for it.

I know a Karis, no problems with pronounciation!

Boo of course we wouldn't say "Charis - pronounced the Ancient Greek way" . When have I suggested we would?! We would just give the correct pronunciation, or say something like, "It's said "Caris" as in "charisma"".

Secondly, do you have a Classics degree that required you to take a number of papers in Ancient Greek? Or a doctorate in it for that matter? Because the pronunciation of Ancient Greek is a pretty settled area, which you would know if you had undertaken these things (and yes, there are differences between Ancient and modern day Greek, as I have said). Just because a language is now dead does not mean we don't know this - we know, for example, how certain words entered the English language. The pronunciation of Charis is not a matter of conjecture.

If I sound exasperated, I'm afraid it's because I am! If you don't want to believe me (or DH, the one with years of classical scholarship behind him) then OK, fine, just continue to dig in in the face of centuries of evidence to the contrary! And if you don't like the name or think we're being snooty in some way for doing so, then also fine.

Very happy to provide you with further info on the pronunciation of Ancient Greek and sources to go and look at if you're genuinely interested in the area, but otherwise I think we're just gong round in circles here, so let's draw a line under it!

I'd imagine a lot of people will pronounce the H sound but I don't think that would be a massive deal. Just don't say 'Charis as in charismatic'. That's the kid of cheesy line Swiss Toni would come out with!

It's a lovely name (although visually I do prefer the Welsh Carys)

Honey you should not be exasperated because a) academic debates are all about discussion and not appeals to authority, and, more importantly, b) this is the sort of discussion you and your DD will need to have with people often given your choice of name.

On a) the point is not to measure dick sizes with your DH (if you want to I have a PhD in philosophy -gained after a higher first and a distinction at masters level and passed with no corrections) and logic dictates that a matter of how a language is vocalised in the absence of any speakers of the language will always be contentious. A tiny bit of research suggests that the change in pronounciation of χ θ and φ is, in fact, contested in the linguistics literature.

On b) you did ask if people will have a problem pronouncing the name and the answer is probably yes, until they are corrected, after which, provided they remember, they should be fine. In English ch is most commonly pronounced ts and while it is also pronounced k, it is further pronounced ssh. Couple that with an unfamiliar name and you will get different pronounciations. In Greek it is a familiar name but clearly pronounced h and not k, so you'll have pronounciation problems there as well. You can say "Karis with a Ch like 'charismatic'" but that does sound made up. To explain the pronounciation and spelling you will need to say "Karis with a Ch the Ancient Greek way" but I don't see why that frustrates you as you want to name her Karis with a Ch because of the Ancient Greek pronounciation.

Why do I care? As your DH will tell you an academic with an argument is like a dog with a bone. Also I have an difficult Ancient Greek name which has to be re-pronounced (mine is phonetically difficult for English speakers, less so for Greek speakers), spelt and explained each time. You may not mind this, or may even enjoy the prospect, which is fine, but you did ask!

I like it OP.

You won't meet many awkward people like booboo IRL so you're unlikely to have to justify the pronunciation to this extent (and nor should you have to!)