American names = bad?

[thecaroline]

Hello, everyone,

I'm not a mom or pregnant, just very interested in names. I've been reading here for a while and am a regular on another name website, and I've noticed that lots of posters here seem to feel a certain disdain for "American" sounding names. I'm curious about this, partly because I'm American, and partly because I don't understand the categorization.

So, what are these American names you speak of? And I'm wondering if all "American-sounding names" are inherently tacky to the British/Irish ear, or... what do you think? Where do "Australian sounding names" fit into this equation?

I have a feeling that this category of names is what a good number of Americans would label "tacky" or "trendy"... or at least I hope so.

Thanks, y'all (I might as well play up my Americanness, right?)

:)

Being seen as an Irish Republican wouldn't necessarily lose you any friends in America (however it would in Britain). I don't think the 'it's politically inoffensive' rationale for choosing Shannon and names like that would matter.

Typo (or possibly autocorrect as I type the name Ailbhe from time to time) -- I meant Ailbe for a boy's name

Wrt 'Madison Wojciechowski' -- I think it's sad not to have ties to the place your ancestors may have come from and to choose a faddish name when there are plenty of other names that wouldn't be such clangers alongside your surname. Of course it's possible that Madison could have some family context too, but my guess would be that a name like that would be chosen for fashion reasons. By the same token I think it's a shame to lose track of your culture to such an extent that when you do go to reclaim it all you have is something from the movies or a map.

Maybe that's what makes the concept of 'American' names hard to accept -- that there is no clearly apparent context besides 'American' to the names that jump out. 'Colonials' or Europeans are not the only people to experience that reaction when faced with names like Trip/Trap/Trig/Truck/Addison/Madison/Kassidi, etc., except in America the names in question are not thought of as 'American names' when people look askance at them.

"Being seen as an Irish Republican wouldn't necessarily lose you any friends in America"

Yup. Most people wouldn't even blink. We're Americans!

"I think it's a shame to lose track of your culture to such an extent that when you do go to reclaim it all you have is something from the movies or a map."

Also, yup. I think someone mentioned this already, but during the the greatest waves of immigration, to be Irish was to be something other than "white." And if one wanted jobs, etc., one had to assimilate. This meant name assimilation as well. The Irish became white, the Jews became white, and in the latter part of the 20th century, Irish people starting reclaiming a heritage that had been denied to them on a national level. But where to start? I wonder how many Irish immigrants would have records of their families' lineages back in Ireland, access to names, etc. So they got a shoddy baby book and chose something "Irish" or they took a name like Megan and changed it to Meaghan and called it Irish because it "looked" Irish. But I think the root of it is that it was a culture denied to a lot of people, and they're doing their best to approximate it. Same thing happens with African Americans, though they were admittedly WAY more oppressed and still are way more oppressed than the Irish in America.

What's really interesting is when you get into the arbitrary meanings assigned to these Irish name creations. Then you really gain an understanding of what Ireland is in the US imaginary.

Jewish and Irish people never needed to become white! They needed to 'melt' in to the pot, as prejudice was across the board.

In my opinion American people people weren't / aren't interested in a name that genuinely reflects their heritage. They might have had access to an old family album or something but the names they chose/choose show only how completely they have melted in to the pot!, by wanting something that is fashionable in their new country. Nothing wrong with that!

Assimilate to survive.

But if you're 4th generation American, and thus your Polish surname comes from your great-great-great grandfather, so you are at best 1/16th Polish - why should that very slim connection override all the prevailing American culture that your family has built up? Why would you need a Polish first name to 'match' your surname? What about if the Polish connection is maternal, and so your parents go for 'Madison Smith'?

It's very English-centric view of the world to view common American names as 'fashionable' simply because they aren't in your home country.

Completely agree Ruby.

I think that the some if the British have quite a different attitude towards names from people's cultural heritage. My DM is very assimilated and was horrified that I was considering a name from her original country for DD. She said that since DD wasn't entirely of that heritage it wasn't appropriate and we should use a 'normal English name'. DD does have a name that is mainstream in the UK, but its origins are classical, so I have no idea why my DM thought it much better. Perhaps part of my DM's concern was due to the discrimination she experienced during her life in the UK.

Yes, I agree with that pico. If I had picked a traditional name from our home country my parents would have been very shocked.

It's quite useful for the more unusual of my children's names to be able to say 'DH was born in x country' and the cultures that make us up are part of how we chose what we liked but they have never been the deciding factor.

There are children in my son's high school named Kensington (g), Cortland (b), Remington (b) and Waverly (g).

These are four examples of what I see as being (truly) American names; i.e rather pretentious sounding surnames/place names used as first names. There are other children at the school with similar names.

I can't imagine children with these kind of names anywhere else, I really can't, to me they are simply American.

Those names are hilarious Tess, and yes, very American.

I suppose they're supposed to sound upper class and successful. It's very Dynasty though isn't it?

Still giggling at Remington.

I believe that's the rationale behind them squoosh, but yes, it's very Dynasty.

I was really hoping that Remington's surname was Steele, but alas, it's not!

"Jewish and Irish people never needed to become white! They needed to 'melt' in to the pot, as prejudice was across the board."

Do some reading. Just a little bit. (I'm a scholar of this period in history)

DD1 is at an international school and her American friends are called: Elizabeth, Katherine, Victoria, Julia, Sophia and Kate.

Wow! i have history cpming out of my ears! Not american history granted but there is no account that woul make irish people non-white.

I
Obviously non white people were subjected to prejudice because.... they were poor. And the jewish subjected to prejudice because they werent.

By all means explain what you mean though. I am interested. Not interested enough to go and research another country's history but certainly, sufficiently interested to read an explanation of "irish people needed to become white" on this thread. I am sure you can understand why this is a very confusing thing to read. I am aware that the poverty-stricken irish faced prejudice.

I just googled "irish people needed to become white" and something came up about American definitions of Whiteness, but even by that definition which includes Europe of course, it doesn't make sense to me!

I didn't know that there was an official definition of whiteness in America!

Well actually, no hang on, I think I remember that if somebody had even one great great grandparent that was black they weren't considered white and had to 'pass'.

I learned that from a Fannie Flagg book.

I was quite surprised to find that Hispanic people are considered a different race in America.

Whereas in Europe, Spanish people are not, they're white.

Whiteness is not a static category. Whiteness has different definitions in every country, but also over different time periods. So "white" at this particular time, meant something very different than it does not.

There is no official definition of whiteness in America. There are still people who claim Jews aren't white. And I bet you there are plenty of people who claim the same thing in Europe. It's not really an American issue. It's a racial issue - racial categories are constructed, they change all the time. The borders of race are ill-defined and arbitrary.

www.pitt.edu/~hirtle/uujec/white.html (article on the Irish "becoming" white)

"I was quite surprised to find that Hispanic people are considered a different race in America."

Well, as ridiculous as I find this entire race-labeling business, I think the difference is that hispanic peoples in the US usually descend from indigenous South/central Americans, etc., so they are visibly darker than, say, a European person from Spain.

So "White American" at that time meant Establishment?

I will read the article now. Thank you for the link.

It was a few years back now op when I was in my teens, I suppose I'd not given it much thought until I was in America for an extended period and was signing forms etc.

I see how it makes sense

Race and Hispanic Origin are two separate categories for the US Census, which recognizes that race and ethnicity are not the same thing. So some Hispanic people are Caucasian; some are not.

Interesting. Not the irish emigrants finest hour, colluding with the oppression of the slaves. Good for Daniel O'Connell for speaking out. On the other hand, it's a big plinth to hand to poor people with no choices, responsibility for the welfare of another race, their competitors for work too.

just one more question, was there Paperwork to confirm 'whiteness'? Like a pedigree or a sort of white-american passport?! If the person succeeded financially, and supported the establishment, was that enough?

thecaroline, it's not just the U.S.

In the 1960s a room to let in the UK might come with the proviso of "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish".

There has long been a knowing joke amongst Irish people in the UK that you are "innocent until proven Irish".

And as for Irish travellers, racism towards them is absolutely acceptable to most British people. Do you think there would be a television programme made, called, "My Big Fat Jamaican wedding"? Anyone would see immediately that to sneer at the culture of Afro-Caribbean people would be racist. But sneering at Irish travellers is mainstream.

I think a lot of Irish travellers go to Britain because the prejudice they face there isn't as bad as the prejudice they face here, because British people can't really tell I guess.

Yes sneering at travellers is dreadful. I did a course recently and there was a traveller on it, she did really well, really high scores the whole way along. Her husband was against her doing the course. He used to wait for her outside. He did everything he could to sabotage her. She was very clever and to our shame we kind of discussed her lot in life when she didn't show up. We were all willing her to leave him but if it's hard for a settled woman to leave a controlling abusive husband, it's a million times harder for a traveller to leave an abusive husband.

I'd love to think channel 4 could have donated some money to womens aid type services for traveller women. Blimey what a tangent.