American names = bad?

[thecaroline]

Hello, everyone,

I'm not a mom or pregnant, just very interested in names. I've been reading here for a while and am a regular on another name website, and I've noticed that lots of posters here seem to feel a certain disdain for "American" sounding names. I'm curious about this, partly because I'm American, and partly because I don't understand the categorization.

So, what are these American names you speak of? And I'm wondering if all "American-sounding names" are inherently tacky to the British/Irish ear, or... what do you think? Where do "Australian sounding names" fit into this equation?

I have a feeling that this category of names is what a good number of Americans would label "tacky" or "trendy"... or at least I hope so.

Thanks, y'all (I might as well play up my Americanness, right?)

:)

It's very English-centric view of the world to view common American names as 'fashionable' simply because they aren't in your home country.

Names like Madison are relatively new in America. I view them as fashionable because that is what they are. It's nothing to do with being Anglocentric.

Here is a graphic illustrating the very recent popularity of Madison and here is a similar one for Brittany.

These names came out of nowhere. They were not common until very recently. Brittany's star seems to have waned, while Madison is still topping the charts.

Madison Smith is an example of parents choosing a fashionable name over something more in tune with their heritage, because Madison is nothing to do with anyone's heritage.

Frazzled -- Irish people were considered to be at most only one step up from apes back in the 19th century, as you will see if you peruse Punch magazine cartoons online and similar American incarnations.

It is hard to find any depiction of Catholic Irish people in magazines like that that were in any way complimentary. They were definitely not considered to be 'white', which meant White Anglo Saxon Protestant, rich or poor, in the American context (and the British context) in the 19th century.

They are often depicted with potbellies, claws for hands and simian features, often seated on barrels of whiskey, while WASPS and British are shown as normal humans or even semi-Grecian.

Madison Smith is an example of parents choosing a fashionable name over something more in tune with their heritage, because Madison is nothing to do with anyone's heritage.
I know people whose heritage is so mixed that the only cultural identity that they can reasonably relate to is American.
There's actually nothing wrong with that, as difficult as it might be for you or me to wrap our heads around.

Having been on a course on 'prejudice', everyone has it to one extent or another even if they don't realise. On a thread like this one, to my mind, it's interesting to learn what people's perceptions are - even if it's 'not very nice'. I grew up with a double-barrelled surname, and since I took my husband's single surname I have noticed people have ceased to make automatic assumptions about me.

I have a lot of American friends through a very small on-line mother's group I belong to. The vast majority would be seen as middle or upper-middle class in the UK, yet the names they have chosen to call their children are those that most people in the UK would consider the polar opposite of Rupert and Tarquin.

I did notice that two years ago not a single child in the UK was named Tarquin and I imagine that has a lot to do with it being used as the stereotypical affected upper-class name.

My grandparents were horrified by the names my siblings and I chose for our children - all very middle class today, but my 90 year-old grandmother asked why we all named our children after kitchen-maids. When we choose DD's name we went for one that wasn't deemed to be of any particular class, although her middle names would be likely to make people assume she was upper-middle.

I'm not personally a fan of surname sounding-names, although a look at birth records in the 19th century shows that they were popular here.

I also find it odd when I see what I consider male names - Aubrey - used for girls. Not keen on the Hunter, Rider, Tracker, Trigger varieties.

I do think parents should take a bit of responsibility for checking, in today's global society, that their child's name isn't going to induce sniggers in another country. An American friend was horrified when I explained what her planned name of 'Burke' meant in the UK.

In 1984 Madison was such a ridiculous, unthinkable name for a girl that the film Splash had a whole running joke about it (Daryl Hannah's character picked the name off a street sign).

Roughly 15 years later it was the #1 name for girls in the US.

I don't think it's particularly English-centric to describe it as 'fashionable'.

(Nor do I think there's anything wrong with a "fashionable" name, if that's what floats your boat.)

Thanks Mathanxiety, yeh, I remember seeing the old punch cartoons in History Class in school. It was shocking, but that was Britain at the time, dehumanising the Irish to justify their agenda. It was nothing more than politics at the time. It wasn't a human rights thing back then! HUMAN rights?! ha ha.

I remain a little shocked that America also de-humanised the irish. As that country was the so-called land of the free, where starving poverty-stricken emigrants went for a better life. And ended up being classified as....... (still not sure, it's confusing).

So "white-american" was not like white. As in, not caucasian, white-american was a STATUS. I think. I asked the OP earlier if there was paper work to support people's status as a white-american. If for example a white Irish person could work their way up to being a white-american. Were non-whites allowed to own property? Were they allowed to vote? Could a non White-American have a bank account? HOW did it work? HOW did they even police it?! OP has gone I think.

Did the splash film start the trend for picking presidents' names for girls?

Reagan had started to take off almost as soon as he was elected (so before Splash) -- I'd guess, therefore, that was more of a statement of current political allegiance. And I don't think people associate Taylor (started to take off in the 1970s and reached a peak around 1990) with the historical President at all.

Are there other Presidents' names used widely for girls? Most of them seem solidly on the boy end of the spectrum to me.

Lincoln will rise as a girl's name I should think (if it's not already) because Kristen Bell and Dax Shepherd named her daughter Lincoln.

I think that's an interesting point though, in a country where you can use pretty much any name you want why do all their presidential surnames 'sound' like boy's names? It shows the bias in gender expectations.

A lot of them are names specifically meaning "son of" (Jefferson, Madison, Jackson, Harrison, Johnson, Wilson), some are traditional boys' given names also used as surnames (Pierce, Arthur) and some are occupation names which have always enjoyed a bit of a given name/surname crossover for boys (because women don't have occupations, naturally) (Tyler, Taylor, Carter). And Truman means specifically "trusty man" so not an obvious choice for a girl.

Taft and Polk are out there to be reclaimed for girls, though (I have heard McKinley used for a girl, now I come to think of it).

Yes, but why has Madison become popular and not others? It's a question of zeitgeist to a certain extent and that is absolutely influenced by what people expect from their children.

Largely, I suspect, because a generation of teenage and pre-teen girls went to see Splash in movie theatres. And then, as you say, it sort of snowballs in a zeitgeisty way.

Lincoln for a girl is just so harsh. But I guess it has Ling or Lin at the start of it.

With this kind of naming choice, there's no expectation or bench mark (?) for a girl's name to be feminine. Personally I like names like Shelby and Casey that have a unisex vibe. But they're still attractive sounds (jmo of course). Lincoln is not only an unattractive sound imo but it kind of jars half way through. Maybe that's just me. A girl's name should roll off the tongue. Maybe that's sexist of me!

Kennedy must sound like a girls name to the American ear though. I don't think so myself, especially as it starts with KEN which is actually a male name! But Kennedy is considered a girls name in the USA.

ps, Reagan was used for girls. Kennedy for girls. Madison for Girls.

It seems to me (?) that it is the american girls who get presidents names. The boys get more paedestrian names! Carter, Cooper etc

Oh of course, I forgot about Jimmy. I forgot that Carter was a president name. Ok, that undermines my Girls-Get-President names theory!

(and Jefferson, Jackson, Harrison, Wilson, Pierce, Arthur, Truman and Tyler. But other than those you are spot on ).

It probably is sexist, but I think it's normal to relate to things in terms of gender divides because that's what we're taught from birth really.

I think the 'son' sound is quite gentle and feminine, I think Jefferson and Wilson would work for someone wanting a soft sounding girls name.

I remember thinking that Bellamy would have made a good sur name first name for a girl. I am not totally totally opposed to sur names for girls! Bellamy was on my list for my dd I think. Strong but feminine. I just met a wall of wtf faces when I ran it past others! People would have thought I was the world's biggest David Bellamy fan.

Also, nice play on bel ami/belle amie which might be a bit cheesy but I like it.

I like Bellamy too. There is a family who are designers or something (I think they have a show) and have a lot of children, all with "different" names. One of theirs is Bellamy :)

As far as Presidential names, Grant is popular for boys, and Hayes isn't unheard of. Nor Truman.

What should I name DC3, is the real question here?

Madison was used as a male name in my family for several generations, the last of them is my cousin, who was born in 1978.

By the time he had his own children, Madison was firmly in the girl camp, thanks to that bloody film. As a result, his first born (a son) was given Madison as a middle name, and so a family tradition going back generations was lost.

Such a shame.

Cheerful, ooh, to go with the daughter you aleady have? I don't know your dc1's name but I remember your dd's name and I love it. em Honor is my suggestion for a girl. Victor for a boy.

Yes, a new one! :) DS is Sam, DD is Margaret/Maggie.

I love Honor and Victor but our last name is a noun. Probably shouldn't double noun. :(