To think the professional world is full of middle aged men of very average abilities who still seem to have gone far

This would have benefited from voting.
YANBU!

yes yes yes

I read this too and as a result started to apply for jobs where i met less of the criteria and I have had equal success levels.

That’s why they said “God, grant me the confidence of a mediocre white man” I think.

They do massively overrate themselves and see the benefits of doing so, in that others tend to buy into it. I think being tall also helps, as between the field of other mediocre white men. Women tend to under rate themselves and are underrated accordingly!

Generalising of course.

My only comment is it's not just white men. We have a gvt cabinet stuffed full of very mediocre people and many aren't white

Hrtft - completely agree OP - have you watched ?

I thought it was very telling when I posted here a while ago about a job ad I'd seen, where I met most but not quite all the criteria. There were some supportive posts but most were women telling me I'd be wasting everyone's time if I applied, whereas I know from seeing the other side that men will apply quite happy for jobs they're completely underqualified for. I got an interview but didn't get the job.

That said, I was talking to one of said professional men the other day. He said something along the lines of "when you're in a junior position you assume those charge know what they're doing. Then, when you reach one of those positions, you realise it's often not the case as were all muddling through". So I think everyone has an element of imposter syndrome.

I also wonder if because of the "expectations" on men to be the great provider, they're more likely to take a deep breath and just do things they're uncomfortable with because they "have to", whereas women are more able to say no, I wouldn't be comfortable in that role.

Well that was productive 😆

Yes but that also applies to women in the same places. Why would you expect genuinely inspiring people at all levels in management all over the place. Being genuinely inspiring and incredible isn’t a trait that many people have.

Why are you expecting incredible inspiring men to be average managers in the advertising industry?

Yes. I work in retail, and unfortunately it's similar in this area of work too. It can feel like one big boys club at times. A lot of women have left over the past couple of years for the same reason, so it does seem to be a widespread thing

The working world will always be full of people with average abilities - because most people are average. Maybe your expecting too much and taking quite a man hating attitude to work.

Is it because average ability/better women don't get the opportunity or because they don't apply?

A smile of recognition reading this thread. Found exactly the same working in hospitality (uni), research partners and lab managers (again uni), teaching (OMG), local council management (I've had lots of careers 😂). Now I work for myself in an industry with mainly women. It's great. No egos 🤣

Maybe women are just as average but (some) women just think they’re better because they identify.

The greatest percentage of normal managers are going to be average and mediocre and probably not even trying that hard.

I'm not sure if it's true for my industry, but certainly true for my workplace.

For example, noone thinks anything of me working or delivering events solo, lates and/or off-site, but all the men I work with (line manager include) need to have their hands held. Even simple things like using a chair trolley to move stacked chairs, I've witnessed three of my make colleagues debate how to put the stacked chairs on it because it wasn't working, only for me to immediately point out that the base was too narrow and they need the other one.

The mind boggles.

Ive known women the same though and apart from current women boss , the other couple have been awful and I have much preferred my make bosses
But confident talk the talk people often get the bigger jobs as opposed to the doers

@OP83 exactly its seems white middle aged men its ok to say whatever about and generalise in a way no one would do about anyone else, but its very much a mumsnet thing

@astronewt no what isn't right is generalising all middle aged white men as one whole group

Could not agree. Women have to work twice as hard, for a lot less credit and pay

So true

I blame MBAs or as my H calls them -masters in the art of bullshit. People who are really good at their jobs tend to go off and do their own thing if that works OR they never get the absolute top jobs within companies because they are very much needed to actually keep the show on the road in a practical way

Particularly galling in areas where the workforce is 99.5% female...except right at the top.

This.

And it's not just diversity we need.... We need people who are willing and actually able (i.e. not just sacked) to challenge the status quo. Easier if they are in power though, otherwise it's just the old Etonians leading the old Etonians, as it thus ever was

Not really the case in my job (teaching) imo. Maybe it's because it's a heavily female sector. Admittedly men are still very over-represented in senior management, but proportionally I wouldn't say there was necessarily a greater number of crap, over-promoted people amongst the men than the women.

I think the underpromotion of women in teaching is more to do with societal inequality- i.e. women still bearing the brunt of the childcare burden and needing to go part-time when they have children due to unaffordable childcare and partners with 'more important' jobs.

Admittedly men are still very over-represented in senior management, but proportionally I wouldn't say there was necessarily a greater number of crap, over-promoted people amongst the men than the women.

Unless you think that the men who choose teaching as a career are disproportionately high calibre, this statement makes no sense.

If you have an industry which is majority female, but the leadership is majority male, you can guarantee that mediocre men are being promoted over better performing women.

See also: Nursing

What proportion of senior nurses are male compared to the proportion of male nurses overall?