to think it's time for plain speaking to make comeback.

[Fontella]

In this PC age, it's as if everyone is frightened to say anything anymore that could be construed as unkind or offensive but I find myself asking - whatever happened to plain speaking?

I recently did a course at evening classes (which I'd paid a considerable sum for and which was very intensive). There was one bloke in the class who was an absolute pain the arse. He would interrupt the tutor constantly, ramble on for ages about himself, people's eyes would be glazing over, and the tutor sometimes had that 'not again' look on his face, but no-one said anything. These weren't minor disruptions but were continual and took a considerable chunk out of lessons.

I sat next to him once and it was a nightmare. I cut him short several times when he started rambling on to me about things, and he even asked at one point if I was ok as I didn't 'look very happy'. I soooo wanted to say something but I knew it would go down like a lead balloon with the tutor and the others - as we were continually being told about inclusion and equality, not being rude to people, moderating our behaviour and comments, not to make people feel like outsiders etc. He wasn't an unpleasant person as such, just a total pain in the arse when it came to talking and interrupting.

By contrast - I remember some years back I had arranged to meet up with a group of mature friends for lunch/afternoon out in a nearby town. We hadn't seen each other for a long time so it was a rare event and had left our families - DCs and partners at home. We had all travelled by train from various places and arranged to meet the last of our friends at her house which was right by the station. When we got there she and her two teenage daughters (right little madams it had to be said) came out all dressed up ready to go. She said 'you don't mind if the girls come do you?' and everyone just sort of looked at the floor awkwardly, until another friend said 'Yes actually I do'. There was a shocked 'Oh' from mother and sulky faces from daughters, as other friend went on to say why. She was absolutely spot on in what she was saying, although not unnecessarily cruel or rude as such, just straight to the point really, no holds barred. The rest of us were all thinking yesssssssss!

We ended up having a fabulous afternoon as a result which would have been totally ruined had the female equivalent of Kevin and Perry been in tow but if it had been left to the rest of us, no-one would have said anything.

It seems in this PC age you can't say anything to anyone anymore, and I just wondered what others thought?

There's a lot of fannying about in the name of PC and I'll admit that I've wasted a lot of time in the past either dropping hints or treading on eggshells hoping not to offend. Never works. The person in question is either impervious to hints or doesn't appreciate that you're trying to spare their feelings. All that happens is you end up feeling frustrated/ignored/cowardly. So these days I'm very much with your 'yes, actually I do mind' friend and it's extremely liberating!!! Keep it short and straight without being overtly rude and I think people will come to appreciate your candour. 'Inclusion and equality' does not mean 'I have to put up with any old crap and keep smiling'

Your night-school man... "Do you mind not interrupting? I was interested in what the tutor had to say."

I disagree

I don't personally think PC has "gawn maaaaad" at all, people are still pretty rude and insensitive IMO

and in the two examples described in the OP I can't see any benefit or virtue whasoever in the "plain speaking" - it looks like self-centred "look-at-me" posturing, and bloody rude and unkind

you could polietly suggest that all questions are asked at the end of the lesson when the tutor can answer them more efficently, and can concentrate more on the actual lesson plan they have planned.

It is rude IMO to keep going on and on as a single student.
I always had loads of questions for teachers etc, but i usually wrote them down and handed them in at the end and found 9/10 gave me great answers the next lesson ( written down ) so i could keep them and go over if needed.

doesn't this constant badgering make the lesson go on longer than needed?

The trouble is, of course, that some people don't know where 'plain speaking' ends and downright rudeness begins.

These are very often the same people who pontificate about how they 'tell it how it is' and then go on to be unspeakably rude and often hurtful.

Nothing wrong with plain speaking per se- it would save a lot of time but on the whole I think I would prefer people to err on the side of good manners.

Don't know where you get that from Greensleeves. No-one said anything to the guy at college. There was no 'look at me posturing' from anyone.

As regards the friend who spoke up - perhaps we should just have taken the two girls then, even though everyone else had left their children at home, and there had been no prior indication that she was planning to bring them? I'm glad my friend spoke up, and so was everyone else there!

had anyone applied any "plain speaking" in that instance Font, then it would have been IMO

"plain speaking" is almost always a euphemism for ditching common decency and being fucking rude and selfish

IMO

Assertive is a vital skill to acquire - there is no need to be rude.

"Do you mind not interrupting? I was interested in what the tutor had to say." sounds perfectly ok to me. Direct but not rude.

"Why don't you just shut the f**k up you annoying little man" probably isn't ok

Oh that sounds just awful - I would have been spitting feathers!

I think that stuff like this is best addressed with a 'group contract', like an agreed set of behaviours and standards for the lessons/meetings. So if everyone agrees that no single student should hijack the lesson or questions to come at specific times then the group can politely refer the hijacker back to the agreed group contract.

When I used to run groups I would agree this stuff up front at the first lesson or session and have the rules written out and stuck on the wall to be able to refer to. The group owns the rules not the individual or the teacher/facilitator. Its not personal so noone can feel picked on. IMO respect is a two way street and boring people to death and wasting their time is as inconsiderate and disrespectful as saying "Time Out" or "its time for you to stop talking now"!

I don't think there has ever been a time when 'plain speaking', as the op descibes it, was the norm.

This has nothing to do with 'the PC age'.

It is to do with people making their own judgements about what to say and how to say it and people have always had different opinions on this.

Plain speaking is a lost skill. I can't bear wafflers and verbal procrastinators.

Yadnbu.

Sorry, my grammar is awful today

re 'the group owns the rules' and 'facilitator'. Now, it can easily be argued that those terms are the result of a PC age.

But did you find $5 at any point?

True pointydog, but for a group to function there has to be rules. I think years ago rules were clearer, manners were more homogenous and it was less likely that people were in a group with people that didn't subscribe to their way of thinking. The diversification of society and thus your potential groups means you need a new set of tools. Enter touchy-feely words like 'own' and 'facilitate'. Its still the same old message though. If we want to get anything done you need to behave yourselves and work together!

do you mention Political Correctness because the talkative student has some kind of learning difficulty or mental health issue?

Agree with those who've said that assertiveness is not usually rude (although it's possible for it to be perceived as such), but it's a fine line to draw.

I do think there are a lot of people in the world who will take massive offence where none is intended just because they have been questioned or thwarted.

This is more to do with ego than anything else imo.

Did your friend take the 'no' in good part, fontella?

I think both situations you describe are more down to the fact there is a group present (people less likely to risk the down side of speaking up if there is a chance someone else might) than that plain speaking has disappeared.

I completely disagree that this kind of over-politeness has anything to do with a PC age, however. That would be when you don't voice an assumption you have made about the person without finding out if they fit in your stereotype, for example laying some of the blame for annoying man on his sexuality/age/baldness/gender etc. There is no government department for protecting the rights of rude or annoying people.

On the off-chance you meant PC as in computer, suggesting that society has not fully adapted to having so many forms of communications nor the permanence of them compared to straight forward conversation, than I would kind of agree or at least think it an interesting discussion.

but what on earth have the op's examples got to do with political correctness?

Right. Since you asked for plain speaking.

You have inexplicably attributed you and your friends' lack of assertiveness to political correctness. This is completely erroneous. It does you no favours, and I'm really not sure what your point is. If you want to tell someone something, simply tell them.

x-post with about fifteen people.

To clarify, I tagged the whole PC thing onto this because it occurred was in the classroom situation where we were being taught about inclusion, equality, being polite to each other, no discrimination etc in the sessions and in the midst of this was this one guy who was making the lessons very difficult for all of us with his constant interruptions and monologues.

Once upon a time a teacher would have nipped in the bud, but it was allowed to continue and you could see it was really getting people down.

He didn't have learning difficulties but didn't seem to have any self-awareness, I suppose you'd say. Very articulate and argumentative and forceful in his assertions. It came to dominate every session. It was just a situation where I thought that once upon a time something would have been done about it, but the fear of upsetting or offending someone seems to have overtaken that and an entire class was affected.

The second example I agree has nothing whatsoever to do with PC - I just put it in there as an example where someone did speak up. Obviously wrongly, judging by some of the 'plain speaking' responses, so my apologies for causing any offence, which was never the intention.

Tethersend I wasn't trying to do myself 'any favours' I was genuinely asking why we are sometimes afraid of speaking up these days, but thanks for your blunt response anyway!

Boobeedoo - yes she did (after the initial awkwardness) and agreed that it hadn't been the best idea. She just said hadn't thought about it really, as they had just kind of assumed they were coming, and she didn't dissuade them from the idea. She made a point of saying how much she had enjoyed her afternoon away from her DD's and was glad our other friend had spoken up.

As I don't want to get into any arguments I'll leave it there, but thanks to those who replied.

Just one comment - as a lecturer, I don't think the tutors failure to intervene was down to Political Correctness, but more likely just poor teaching skills. I've had similar problems in class with eager students who interrupt with questions every couple of minutes and the answer is usually to take them aside after class, when the others have left, and gently but firmly request that they save extra questions for the end of class, or write them down and come to speak to you afterwards as they are taking your attention away from the other students and interrupting the flow of the lecture. We don't also point out that they are annoying the rest of the students and attracting widespread derision!

But yes, I think people can be a bit more tolerant - not because of 'PC', but more because of the traditional English reticence.

I really don't get why you are attributing it to being PC or "these days". The situations you describe are variously rude, annoying and inconsiderate. But your manner of writing is really quite DM-esque.