to think that the money spent on hosting the World Cup would have been better spent helping the poor in South Africa?

[PussinJimmyChoos]

Just heard on a TV prog that the final bill for the World cup is a pretty hefty amount..we are taking millions here

Now, while I understand and appreciate that the World Cup helps to put South Africa on the map, tourism etc....its still not the same as if a fraction of that money went on aid and making lives better for some of the people there

What do you think?

I agree Lewisfan. FIFA had to intervene a few years ago (2007) as there was a massive amount of corruption going on with respect to the funds allocated for Infrastructure Development (building of stadiums etc).

I was living there at the time and I can remember thinking that it was inevitable. It was a bit of a circus really - contract awards were a joke. Sadly, corruption is a fact of life in South Africa.

Building stadiums is the least of the average Joes' worries in SA. Corruption, poverty and lack of social services are the real deal.

so cancel all sporting events to cancel out poverty? well that would be great if it could happen....

why ant SA bring their people up to better living standards? why would other countries need to step in...

My point is that poverty is everywhere. And actually, if we're talking thousands of people in the UK rather than millions in SA, surely it should be easier and cheaper for us to tackle? But it still exists here.

So if you're going to say that poverty is a reason for not hosting an international sports game in a particular country, you have to look at all the countries where poverty exists. Which means the whole world.

On the subject of drawing direct comparisons between countries, I heard the story of a doctor from the US who lived in a poor African country for about 20 years, helping the dispossessed there. She then moved back to her home town of Baltimore, and declared that the poverty there was worse - because not only was there extreme financial poverty, but also social poverty - a Western phenomenon which is far less prevalent in African countries. People in Baltimore lived in abject financial poverty, but were also isolated from society, which destroyed them emotionally and psychologically as well. It looks like you're assuming that things are crap in South Africa and better in the West, but it's definitely not so simple as that.

SA cannot afford to bring all of their poor out of poverty. They need investment in their economy, jobs etc to do that. Culturally they also need to encourage people to move from the townships into proper homes. However the homes that are built aren't usually properly constructed and (bigger issue) people are reluctant to move (having been forced to move during apartheid and seeing their homes destroyed). The problems are deep seated and will take considerable time and money (that SA doesn't have) to resolve.

I agree with you entirely, OP. The rape statistics in under ten year olds is sickening, and every time I hear about another match being played, I can't help but think of all the money that could go towards preventing it

The other thing to consider is that SA has the biggest gap between wealthy and poor out of any country anywhere in the world.

Padme - please don't assume it's only in SA (or Africa?) that these things occur. Corruption is a fact of life everywhere. An Ethiopian friend of mine was shocked to discover when he started working in the council system here that he saw the same 'system' of backhanders to award contracts, etc etc, as he'd witnessed at home. It's everywhere.

And, ironically, it was the Brits who created the systems of corruption in their ex-colonies which still function today.

Just to add - the final bill for the world cup will be in the billions of rands. Not millions. The Gautrain link built specifically for the 2010 World Cup cost R26 Billion aloneen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautrain#Cost

This has to be offset by sponsorships, publishing rights, television deals, merchandising and intra country agreements (which I imagine are in place) which also run into the hundreds of millions of Rands if not billions of Rands.

But the money spent on the world cup would not be there but for the world cup. Resources haven't been diverted to fund the world cup.

I don't assume that at all Speedy. I know that it exists everywhere .

I grew up South Africa, so I have a personal interest in this one tis all.

Glad to hear it, Padme. Tis one of the tihngs that annoys the hell out of me as it causes so much damage - usually to people who can least stand up for themselves.

How long since you left SA?

Uh-oh...baby waking for a feed!

'It looks like you're assuming that things are crap in South Africa and better in the West, but it's definitely not so simple as that.'

Speedy you make a lot of sense. I dislike this talk about South Africa which usually goes 'oh the crime, the corruption, the poor poor people' and fails to really engage with the reality of the country which is quite complex. I've been there several times and find the quality of life, in both poor and middle class communities much better than it appears from here. Of course there are massive problems but be careful of being patronising. That's not helpful and not even the poor poor will thank you for it.

From what I hear, the world cup has been very important in uniting the country. Don't underestimate the value of that.

some of the poorest nations in the world are passionate about football.

In Rio the slum kids play 'keepy uppy' at the traffic lights for money.

I went to a poor SA township about 8 years ago - most of the kids could only speak two words of english: 'David Beckham'

I am South African, and am always interested to see how outsiders like yourselves view it.

(1) Never forget, the media portray what they want you to see... it is interesting (?) that they seem to focus on the poor parts of the country (the 3rd world aspect of the country) and not the 1st world part of it. It doesn't enable the viewer to fully grasp what SA is like... it is very much 1st AND 3rd world.

(2) The investment and tourism, population morale, job creation et al that the World Cup has created FAR outweighs the cost of building the infrastructure they have - the Gautrain, stadiums et al. One has to look at the bigger picture.

(3) PadmeHum.. excellent points.

I do not care how any other country spends it money... I do however care when they then sit and cry about being in debt and want this country to bail them out.

I think SA have done a wonderful job with the world cup. Lovely to see everyone so together

yabu. And unrealistic.

Out of curiosity, have you cancelled any big luxury in your life (eg holiday money) to give it to SA?

If you have, I have a bit more understanding for you, if you haven`t it reeks of someone thinking Everybody Else should be sorting this out.

A snippet of an article written about the WC in SA, by Boris Johnson:

'What happens on July 12, after the captain of the winning team has waved the Jules Rimet trophy in his sweaty palm? What will people say when the last fan has traipsed home and the last journalist has composed his last philippic against his defeated national team and when the last vuvuzela has parped its last melancholy parp? What will this World Cup leave for South Africa ?

I have asked barmen and journalists and politicians such as the remarkable Helen Zille, premier of the Western Cape province . I have ended up feeling like those Monty Python characters who were so foolish as to question the benefits of the Roman Empire . The World Cup not only gave jobs and skills and hope to thousands of local people.
The tournament gave an absolute deadline to South Africa for the introduction and improvement of all kinds of infrastructure ? not just sports grounds, but roads and bridges and airports and bus lanes that would otherwise not have been built and which will benefit the country for decades to come. Above all, the World Cup has given this country something intangible but priceless: a deep sense of pride that it has taken on something difficult and done it well.

When they look at themselves in the approving mirror of world opinion, South Africans of every race agree that the first African World Cup is a joyous success, and that success breeds confidence. The rand is rising. South Africans who left for Australia or Canada are starting to return to a country whose banking system largely escaped the recent crisis.

The sheer number of visitors ? about half a million ? will help to open the eyes of the world to South Africa and its potential for trade and investment; and get this ? crime, the crime that has been supposed to be one of the drawbacks of living here, is down 90 per cent in central Cape Town, and there has not been a single serious incident of crime or violence in any of the fan parks.

Of course there will be disappointments, and no one could pretend that the World Cup will solve the economic or political problems of the country. But it offers a sense of unity and confidence to a place with a tragic past. It should help to build the taxpayer base that is so essential to narrowing the wealth gap.

It gives potential wealth creators at least some of the infrastructure they need. Fifa took an inspired decision to give the World Cup to South Africa , and South Africa has responded brilliantly.'

babybarrister: "as to the suggestion further up from Speedy that the Brits introduced corruption in their ex colonies - bollocks!" - perhaps you should tell that to the Radio4 producer and expert contributors to the programme in which they said exactly that. What I said (you misquoted me - if you really are a trainee barrister you'll need to develop a bit more precision ) was that they (and I quote) "created the systems of corruption". That's quite a different thing from introducing the concept of corruption to a country, which you are writing about.

This World Cup has done so much for the country and the investment and increased tourism will eventually be of benefit to all SA's. I think more varied countries should be given a chance, its boring to have all international events in Western Europe and North America all the time. The World Cup is a huge revenue generator and can create a lasting legacy.

By the way there's loads of corruption in developed countries also. Our government are about to implement massive cuts because bankers and others stole mismanaged billions then blackmailed the government to give them billions more. That's the kind of corruption and cash that an African dictator only has wet dreams about.

Soccer is the preferred sport for the black South Africans so it has been inclusive for them and will have gone a long way to reunite the nation, I would assume.

Rugby and Cricket has had major tournaments played there which are mainly elite sports, historically played by the white South Africans.

I was in Cape Town in December for the draw and walked up Long Street when they were celebrated. It was great to see everyone so excited and happy.

I lived in SA in the early 90's when apartheid was just falling. The country has a long way to go but the changes that have taken place in 20 years was heart warming.

So YABU.

Almost all money is 'better' spent somewhere else. I hope you are sending all your money beyond subsistence survival to others who are in danger of not achieving even that. Clearly Global Communism is the answer.