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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that people are far too concerned with keeping the peace, at the expense of their happiness?

26 replies

HecateQueenOfWitches · 11/06/2010 07:01

Family members who are toxic, or who undermine you or argue with you. Friends who make you feel shit about yourself. Partners who walk all over you.

Why do people (yes, myself included, I'm not going to pretend I am any different!) take it?

Oh they really hurt/ me / upset me / angered me but I said nothing.

Said nothing?

Why?

Why not say "Hang on, you are out of order!"
or "It's really none of your business."
or "Look, I don't have to have you in my life and if you carry on being a twat you can just stay the hell away from me."

In short, why continue to have relationships with people who bring nothing but misery to your life? Why? Why not stand up to them?

I have cut people out of my life - my grandparents and the entire side of my dad's family, for example. I have walked away from friends who no longer deserved to be in my life.

But my weak point is my mother. I lack the courage to tell her off. So is that what it is? Courage? Or is it more complicated than that?

OP posts:
anyabanya · 11/06/2010 07:27

Do not know, honestly. I live in a small village, and there is a woman here who is extremely toxic and childish. She is a bully and a fantasist. And people cater to her, to keep the peace. No-body calls her on her behaviour, and tip toes around her. I had someone say to me once 'oh, you just have to ignore her when she does this or says this' (for the record, she was lying, slandering and engaging in a severe character assassination of soneone she had fallen out with). I asked WHY we all had to ignore it and carry on as if nothing had happened. WHY? Why can she not be called on her behaviour and brought to account? This woman has caused people to sell their homes and MOVE because she is so vile. But people let her get away with it.

And to a lesser extent, why do people allow people to get away with personal comments/nasty remarks etc? I have been on the receving end myself and let it happen.

I am geuinely baffled.

HecateQueenOfWitches · 11/06/2010 07:31

Bloody hell, she sounds awful.

And exactly the type of person I am talking about! Why do people allow such folks to go unchallenged? What did people say when you asked why you all had to ignore it?

People behave how you allow them to behave. This is the thing. And I know it with my mother. I need to tell her when she's being unreasonable. I am getting better and working up to it.

People walk all over you only if you lie down on the floor and expose the WELCOME tattoo on your back!

OP posts:
anyabanya · 11/06/2010 07:43

There was no response but a shrug when i asked why we had to ignore her and let hr get away with things. What amazed me was that the person I was talking to is in her late 50s, and the woman in question is older than that, so I kind of think she ought to have grown up by now. I fell out with this woman, because (this still astonishes me) DH and I were 'caught' going to a restaurant with another couple she had introduced us to, 'without asking her permission' because they were her friends first. The abuse I got, on my answering machine, on e-mail was something I have never before experienced. I told her I was not taking it, and voila. AnyaBanya severely ostracised. (DH not ostracised... DH invited to things). Last week i got a phone call from someone who was all in a tizz saying that she was having a 60th birthday surprise party for her husband, and would really like to invite me 'but the fallout' would be too bad with this other woman and hoped I would understand. i DO understand, but I find it completely, utterly bonkers.

My mother has spent her life being a doormat for people (her family mainly) and i have seen how it has affected her self confidence, how it has sent her into severe depression. i am determined to not allow that to happen to me.

HecateQueenOfWitches · 11/06/2010 07:53

Oh my god. What is WRONG with people?

Why are people so afraid of standing up for themselves? We are supposed to take bad behaviour instead of saying NO you may not treat me like that.

If I could just be honest with my mother when she starts. I think I am scared of her disapproval . I think I'm a bit scared of her generally

The more we allow bad behaviour to go unchallenged, the more we are telling people that they have the right to behave as they do.

That mad woman going to a party and you can't because of the fallout. [boggle] So the message she is getting is that everyone agrees that you are unreasonable and she has the right to behave as she does. SHE should be the one being ostracised.

And I hope your husband declines these invites, in support of you!

OP posts:
anyabanya · 11/06/2010 08:00

Oh yes, DH always declines, and I have heard on the graevine that this is because I clearly have him wrapped around my little finger.

It is hard enough with a random person who used to be a friend. With family..... I cannot even imagine what that must be like,Hecate, to try and extract yourself from a toxic toxic situation. So much baggage, and guilt, because you are supposed to love your family. It sounds awful, but when my maternal grandmother passed away, I hope this would effectively liberate my mother. (severe abusive upbringing). It did for a while... a decade or so, but then the guilt overcame her and she has made contact again with her siblings. I fear for her.

HecateQueenOfWitches · 11/06/2010 08:05

I would imagine the rest have turned against you because you had the balls to stand up to her and because you questioned their policy of allowing her to walk all over them. Nobody likes it pointed out to them that they are weak. So there has to be a problem with you otherwise there's something wrong with them, iyswim.

My mother is not so bad, most of the time. I have to say though, that if she was not my mother, I would not have her in my life. It's when she says certain things that I want to challenge her on but I remain mute because I am afraid of her reaction to my saying (rightly!) hang on, how bloody dare you?!

But it's quite common. That's the thing. People staying silent and allowing other people to get away with being nasty! It's just re-enforcing their belief that they have some god given right to treat others with no respect and that everyone should bow down before them.

OP posts:
HecateQueenOfWitches · 11/06/2010 08:08

Oh, I did tell her off, once. When she said - after I had said I would take my (autistic) children to see my grandad - that it was not a good idea. Then when I was not impressed with this, she said she was - get this - "just trying to protect him"

PROTECT HIM?? From my children?

Well, I hit the roof. I put the phone down on her. When I did speak to her, I told her she was a shit grandparent and she had a choice, be in my kids lives properly or not at all, and either was fine with me.

I wish I could stand up to her like that all the time. But protect from my kids did it. I hulked . As any mother would, I think.

OP posts:
Tillyscoutsmum · 11/06/2010 08:14

YANBU but I am exactly the same.

I hate confrontation and can let people walk all over me as a result. There are a few "friends" who I have just slowly and gradually stopped being friends with - no confrontation, no drama - and I sometimes wish I had the balls to tell them why.

My weakest point however is my mother. Like you Hectate, its not necessarily anything massive but just every interaction with her leaves me biting my tongue. The last twice I have seen her, for example, she has poked me in the tummy, told me I am putting on weight and asking whether I am pregnant (I am not - I am however 5 months post natal so am about 5lbs under my pre pregnancy weight). What I would love to say to her is "on what bloody planet do you think that is acceptable behaviour and how would you like it if I were to tell you you'd put weight on". I just can't get my head round why I can't say it to her. Instead, I just quietly seethe for months days

anyabanya · 11/06/2010 08:19

Wow. 'protect'. ? Good on you for hitting the roof, but how extraordinarily hurtful. And to lay down a point which cannot be crossed is good, but I have no doubt, terribly hard.

I find listening [reading] people's experiences on MN to be very helpful, and one thing that seems to be common is that because of a fear of the reaction, people remain silent. Or, someone who is staggeringly insenstive to other people is considered to be 'too senstive' to just be told that their behaviour is simply not on. And also, people rationalise... 'well, she does not mean it' or 'well, she can be great sometimes'. Or whatever.

Trying to work out a way to deal with these things is an ongoing issue for me, as I was brought up to just take whatever was dished out for politeness sake.

I must sign off now... heading to an antenatal appointment, but I send you a most un-MN-like hug. And supportive thoughts. Will check in later, and have a lovely day.

HecateQueenOfWitches · 11/06/2010 08:23

nice talking to you anya.

I think it's def a need a lot of people have - to learn how to stand up and say exactly what needs to be said.

People put the feelings of often quite horrible people, above not only their own but their partners, their childrens.. It has to stop.

OP posts:
HecateQueenOfWitches · 11/06/2010 08:24

tilly. It's hard isn't it? Is it the fear of how she'd react? I wish I could just not care how my mother would react. But I still have the child inside me who is scared of her.

OP posts:
DetectivePotato · 11/06/2010 09:26

YANBU. Drives me mad. However I hate confrontatation which is why I don't say much of what I am actually thinking.

My nan drives me mad about this. We have a couple of truely awful family members. She never says a single word to them about their behaviour and continues to welcome them like she really likes them when I know for a fact that one particular person she wouldn't care if she never saw again. She won't say a word though as she likes to keep the peace.

goldenticket · 11/06/2010 09:42

I am exactly the same and it's getting to the stage where it's really getting me down and affecting my day to day life. I think the trouble is, if you're a person who doesn't like confrontation, you'll do your best to avoid it because you see it as the major cause of any stress in your life. However, especially with people who are close/unavoidable, the build up of stress caused by swallowing all the crap that comes your way from people ends up IMO actually being worse.

I also blame MN as well . I now find myself paralysed in any given situation, even though I am sure that my feelings are valid, because I've read so many threads giving the other side of some completely (you would think) indefensible behaviour that I find myself constantly "putting myself in other people's shoes" and therefore ignoring my own needs/wants/feelings. I really don't know how to stop it .

Does that make sense?

goldenticket · 11/06/2010 10:11

Oh god I've killed this

RubyReins · 11/06/2010 10:31

This is very interesting.

My mother is, I suspect, vaguely psychopathic in that she is somewhat lacking in empathy. She is a lovely charismatic person though and very kind. What is very interesting about her (and as a former psychologist I do find this fascinating!) is that she tolerates bad behaviour from no one. It doesn't matter who they are or what her relationship with them; stranger in the queue at Tesco or her brother, if they are out of line then she tells them so. She is (reasonably) polite with it but has always set her stall out that if you behave badly then she will call you out on it. This has led to some showdowns but she simply doesn't care. She doesn't give a damn if people don't like her and I think that's key here - she seeks no one's approval. If her inability to keep the peace results in that person leaving her life then she is fine with it. What is worth noting though is that she has a gigantic circle of friends and is very popular. So her ability to tell people to naff off has not really affected her at all if anything people respect the fact that she won't be taken for a door mat or treated badly.

I have no idea how she does it - I think she was just born that way. Dad says that she has always been that way. I find it incredible to be honest! She's coming to "look after" me next week as I'll be one week from popping and DH is working away - I may well ask her for tips!

Paranoid1stTimer · 11/06/2010 10:32

Wow - this is an amazing thread. Thoughful and well meaning for a change - usually threads like this are "Get a backbone" types!

anyabanya
"I was brought up to just take whatever was dished out for politeness sake"
This is the exact same for me. My Mum was so polite to everyone but ended up taking out any frustrations on those close to her. Even her family members would get away with behaving badly towards her (although this wasn't really very often) and my Dad is very domineering.

I can't stand up for myself as well as I would like. If I DO end up in a confrontation, I either attack very nastily and say really nasty hurtful things I can't take back just because I feel backed into a corner OR I cry. Since I usually cry when confronted (I was badly bullied when I was about 10 so it all comes flooding back sometimes esp when it is a bitchy bullying woman who is picking) I tend to try to avoid it or I just totally blow and everyone does faces...

I also find I tend to attract these nasty domineering types by basically being a doormat. Also, the people who tend to have a real go and pick on your weaknesses are usually people in positions of power eg MIL (I know, I know, stereotype but it is true), an old Granny or Auntie, mother/father/brother/sister who are held in high esteem by other members of the family even though the other family members agree the people in question are indeed toxic.

Example, DP's old Granny is a racist, biggoted nasty piece of work. She has cut off members of her family to side with other family members only to find she chose the wrong side. The people who she cut off then take her back (again why do we do this?) Only for her to dump them or dump ON them again when the other side of the family come back to her side...

She constantly makes snide comments on people's weight, appearance, cooking, house decor, child rearing, tells people they are not good enough for her family then tells her own family they are not good enough for her. Then, you have a family party and there she is at the head of the table getting waited on hand and foot because "if it wasn't for her, none of us would be here"...

Phew - didnt mean such a long post but you really hit a nerve and it is good to hear others realities for a change!

AgentZigzag · 11/06/2010 10:45

From what I can tell it's mostly a mixture of emotional blackmail (ie I'll have a strop if you dare to question me) and people not feeling comfortable going against social niceties.

I'm like you OP and don't feel an obligation to have contact with someone if they make my life a misery.

Being someones family doesn't give them any kind of special dispensation to treat you like shit, and you have to put up with it because of blood ties. Although I can understand why some might feel they should go with the flow for sentimental reasons.

With mums though I think they are under the belief that 'children' have no rights to say they may be out of order, even if that 'child' is a grown woman and fully entitled to their own opinion

Oblomov · 11/06/2010 10:57

Agree OP. A large % of Mn threads are based on this. why ? why are people so scared on gently standing up for themselves. most posters are so wimpy and spineless, its as if they bring misery upon themselves. I just don't get it. how did this happen ?

hairytriangle · 11/06/2010 11:04

well said Hecate - I am so like that and still can't break free from some of the shit piled on my (past and present) by others.

Shodan · 11/06/2010 11:44

I recently had something of a blow-up with my mother.

She brought up something that happened decades ago to me, something I have repeatedly asked her to drop and was then 'hurt' when I lost my temper over it. (I actually mentioned it as part of a thread on here). The rage, like hecate's, was hulk-like. Instantaneous, overwhelming and rather surprising.

Anyway. After a break of few weeks, she called me and asked to come round for a chat. She told me during this chat that she had found me patronising of late. I said yes, I had been- but that she had been patronising me for years, ignoring what I said to her/asked of her. I also pointed out some disparities in the way she treated me and the way she treated my sister and my brothers.

In short, I told her everything that had been pissing me off for years. And she listened!! And, I think, understood.

We have never been the kind of family who discusses things. We are polite to the point of banality. We seethe with resentment, complain to our other halves, and then seemingly brush it under the carpet, only for it to come to the boil at some later date. But my mother and I have made an agreement- we will try to say what bothers us, when it bothers us.

It's very easy (and rather rude, actually) to say people are 'wimpy and spineless', but conditioning plays an enormous part in how you deal with conflict and confrontation. If you aren't taught these skills when you're growing up, how can you be expected to know how to apply them?

Some people, also, are not naturally confident enough to speak out. This can be taught, but it takes time, and is best taught at home. But if there is a 'prima donna' in your home, then they are unlikely to want to teach you how to call them on their behaviour.

Gah. A rather rambling post, I fear. But hopefully a point can be seen in there. It's never too late to change things.

OrmRenewed · 11/06/2010 11:46

If I had someone who brought nothing but misery I would agree with you. But I've been lucky in that the people that screw up sometimes are usually pretty good the rest of the time. I don't have any entirely bad eggs in the basket.

Marjoriew · 11/06/2010 11:47

I was brought up in care in a very abusive environment. I put up with 15 years of it.
The day I left, I swore no one would bully me, or walk all over me - and I haven't. It's about self-respect. And, let's face it, people can only bully you, intimidate you if you let them.

xstitch · 11/06/2010 11:50

Unfortunately it happens very easily. My ex SIL is one of those people that people pander to. For years I did what I was told as I didn't want to incur the wrath of my then DH. When he left me at first I didn't have the confidence to stand up for myself. Then gradually I got some self confidence. Just simple things like saying "Thank you for your opinion but I'd rather do this my way".

I am now being punished for my 'impudence' and it is causing me a lot of stress. I can handle being ostracised (I can do without the lot of them). However I am struggling with the constant fear of SS arriving at the door and later this month I am being taken to court in XH husbands attempt to have dd taken away from me. All of this being led by ex SIL. While agree it is wrong to pander to this kind of person tbh I completely understand why people find it easier and perhaps even safer to comply with their demands.

Marjoriew · 11/06/2010 11:53

xstitch, it's never too late to start again. Grow yourself some guts and stand up to the lot of them.
It'll be hard at the beginning but once they get the measure of the new you, they will back off - trust me, I've seen it happen.

Altinkum · 11/06/2010 11:53

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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