in thinking Measles can't be more dangerous now than it was 15 years ago ?

[Onajourney]

Hi

Wondering if there are any GP's out there that can tell me this ?

My eldest child is 15 and I still have his baby books and they say Measles is a mild disease and just to keep their temperature down etc, they liken it to chickenpox. I remember not being worried about it at all when he and his 11 year old brother were small.

Fast forward 14 years and we have a 1 year old who is at "huge risk from this killer disease" according our GP, but I can't understand how it can have changed so much.

Can anyone tell me, is Measles worse now than it was 15 years ago and if so why ?

Thanks

Why do you think it isn't?

When would you like to see it administered/if at all?

BCG is no longer universal, only offered to people in high risk groups.

I must admit that tetanus has always scared the pants off me.

Interested to hear when people think that the vaccine should be administered, or is there a case for removing it from the programme?

Really? (re bcg)

I have no idea what the standard is now, tbh. Dd1 had all here abroad, and dd2 has had none. I thought it was still given in some areas.

They give it if your family have contact with/are from certain parts of the world where TB is in the population IIRC. Well they offer it, rather.

They also immunise if there is an outbreak in a school etc.

Now tenants also got an interesting history.

I think its recommended to not have more than 4 doses.over a lifetime (widespread reporting of increased side effects with each one given)

I was recommended NOT to have another recently when I was attacked by a dog (recommended by medic) as I'd already reached my.maximum. had to monitor for signs of infection, and be ready to go get treated ASAP rather than give me another tenants injection...

I live in France where BCG used to be obligatory for school entry. I was told it was no longer relevant for DD2 by the same school doctor who had harassed me about it the year previously for DD1.

Even the needle happy US don't commonly recommend this one (partly due to its limited efficacy I believe).

Grrr. Tetanus. Bloody autocorrect is making for interesting posts today - obvs the heat has got to my phone..

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/BCG/Pages/Introduction.aspx

silverfrog UK course is 5 tetanus.

I tink BCG is offered to people in high risk areas. DD was born in Epsom 7 years ago and not offered it. DS was born in London 5 years ago, and had it. Funny logic, as they have always lived in the same house so I would think they were at pretty much the same risk.

But, my nephew in Chicago had TB. And I figured if he could get it there, we could certainly get it in London.

What really hacks me off about the MMR is that the government refuses to allow us feeble minded commoners to decide for our selves which bits we want and which we don't. So they stopped licensing the single jabs in an effort to take away our choice and force us to have all three.

When I had both the DDs (outer london borough) I was told it was only offered to people from certain higher risk communities.

On the NHS site it says it is given as a matter of course in some inner london boroughs.

I guess each trust does it's own risk assessment, maybe.

Beachcomber thank you for listing the symptoms and signs of meningitis and pancreatitis. As an NHS clinical virologist I am well aware of these, so am not in the habit of "bandying [them] about" as you rather insultingly put it.

Presentation of a child with meningitis is an acute medical emergency, and neither the paediatric staff, nurse specilists, and parents, have the reassurance of your armchair retrospectroscope to immediately tell them their child's illness is likely to be viral and thus mild. A considerable amount of medical and technological effort is brought to bear to provide a laboratory diagnosis before any such reassurances can be given. Meanwhile the parents are worrying A LOT, and the child is probably admitted into a paediatric ward which can be pretty frightening in itself. The child will have to have a CT scan, and if safe to do so, a lumbar puncture to provide CSF for the lab. The child will be given empirical antibiotics to cover the serious bacterial causes. Technical or scientific staff will be called in to look at the Gram film of the CSF for the presence of bacteria. Blood will also be taken from the child for multiple other pathology tests, including virology. In less recent times it used to take quite a few days for the diagnosis to be made, in which the child, and the acute anxiety of the parents and relatives, will remain unchanged. Aside from these humanitarian factors, the cost of admitting a child with meningitis is not cheap by any means, and takes up a bed that another ill child could have.

I would have thought that you and the other people posting on here, who have unfortunately seen the inside of hospitals more than most, to at least be aware of what some children can go through in an effort to make them better. Remember that in the pre-MMR era, the scenario above occurred 1,200 times every year in England & Wales, just because children weren't vaccinated against a virus that causes what you blithely refer to as a "mild" meningitis.

On the other side of the coin, here's what can be achieved in a population of ~5m (Finland), which successfully eliminated mumps by virtue of a high MMR coverage >97%...

Number of notified cases
1971: 22980
1997: 0

Absent from school or work (person years)
1971: 650
1997: 0

Meningitis
1971: 6,400
1997: 0

Encephalitis
1971: 160
1997: 0

Orchitis
1971: 1,600
1997: 0

Bilateral
1971: 500
1997: 0

Male sterility
1971: 125
1997: 0

Mastitis
1971: 1,800
1997: 0

Temporary hearing problems
1971: 920
1997: 0

Permanent hearing problems
1971: 25
1997: 0

Thyroiditis
1971: 250
1997: 0

Pancreatitis
1971: 80
1997: 0

Myocarditis
1971: 30
1997: 0

(Peltola, H., Davidkin, I., Paunio, M. et al. (1999) Indigenous mumps eliminated from Finland (Abstr 158G/HS). 39th Interscience Conference on Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy (ICAAC). San Francisco, CA, 26?29 September.)

Isnt, it is v rare to actually contract tetanus. There are about 6-10 cases ( cases not deaths) a year in the uk. Contrary to popular belief every minor scrape or cut isn't a tetanus risk. Proper wound hygeine virtually eliminates the risk and if you are unlucky enough to contract it, you can treat it with antibiotics. It is not a communicable disease so there are no 'herd immunity' arguments. There is also very little evidence that the vaccine is effective. It is a strange vaccine anyway in that if you actually contract tetanus you are not immune but triggering an immune response with the vaccine is supposed to offer protection.

ISNT - standard course is 5? Or the recommended maximum?

So 3x baby jabs (isn't it?) then a teen booster, I assume. When does the 5th come?

Oh, pre school booster I guess.

Hmm, I'd not be happy with that, tbh.

Beachcomber I found your post interesting, and am assuming it was meant for more general consumption.

"I was told (when living in Africa) the the TB jab is unreliable too."

Yes, it really is. It wasn't even recommended when we moved to a Third World country from a European country as the risk benefit balance is not good. The country we were in (with plenty of immigrants) doesn't even stock it and we would have had to order it from abroad.

Yes, that was the conclusion I reached (not to give to dd1)

Sadly Tue nurse had other ideas and did it anyway - she thought I was just being pfb about my newborn...

"Isnt, it is v rare to actually contract tetanus. There are about 6-10 cases ( cases not deaths) a year in the uk."

I thought that the low rate of tetanus infection in the population was a result of innoculating for decades?

If not, what is the point of the innoculations?

Anyhoo, I guess that tetanus is out.

Any more?

Drop BCG entirely obv. The NHS link says "The vaccine is 70-80% effective against the most severe forms of TB, such as TB meningitis in children. It is less effective in preventing respiratory disease, which is the more common form in adults." so i wonder if when people have said it is ineffective they are talking about in adults?

But we want it dropped, yes?

Can I point out to you Musukebba that it is rather harder to list the adverse events and deaths resulting from vaccination which would enable a more accurate assessment of benefit.

This is largely due to denial and self absolution from responsibility for these events by the manufacturers and authorities.

However I have found this information about the increases in autism and inflammatory bowel disease in Finland.

Autism. M. Kielinen et al, in a study published in the Journal of European Child & Adolescent Psychiatry (5) described a significant rise in autism in the northern provinces of Oulu and Lapland, which represent one eighth of the total population of Finland. The Kielinen study included all children born in the two provinces, between 1979 and 1994. Every single one of those children was eligible and must have received the MMR vaccine. The authors personally reviewed all records of children with autism to determine that they fulfilled the criteria of ICD-10 and DSM-IV. The cumulative incidence of autism was 12.2/10,000, a significant increase when compared to the previously reported incidence of 4.75/10,000 by Vinni and Timonen. The increase in the younger children, all born in the second half of the MMR campaign, was even more striking. In the 5 to 7 age group, the cumulative incidence was 20.7/10,000 or more than 1 in 500."

"According to figures obtained from the Statistical Branch of the Social Insurance Institution of Finland, the number of patients entitled for special refunds because of Crohn?s and Ulcerative Colitis doubled between 1992 and 2001, from 9 737 to 20 807. In the same period, the prevalence rate per thousand of the two conditions also doubled while the population of Finland only increased by 3%."

I'm sorry I can't link to the journal right now but will try later.

Isnt, I am not quite sure what your point is.

Many people who question the current vaccination schedule do so on its "one size fits all" basis.

They want more research and more discrimination.

"OK what are we going to drop then" is a bit simplistic. It looks like you are trying to perform an argumentative trick rather than look at the issue seriously.

I'm not really sure what your point is, ISNT.

I've mentioned a couple of jabs that I think are either not necessary or over-given.

Obviously I think that overall the jab programme could be overhauled - I haven't vaccinated my dd at all.

But tut is not to suggest that most jabs should be "dropped".

Dropping jabs (as in dropping the singles) is part of the problem, imo. I'd rather more singles were available, and.less combinations, so that people can make up their mind about each one.

The thing is that when some very difficult questions arise, with evidence about the damage that vaccinations can do, it is easier to say "ok let's abandon it shall we? shall we? let's give up all vaccinations is that what you want?" -- rather than saying "this needs to be looked at".

It's like my teenager, on being asked to put something away. "Fine I'll just stay up all night and dust all the cupboards and clean the windows and never watch tv again ok? will you be happy then?"

It's an easier response.

backtotalkaboutthis

you may want more research etc

others believe that certain jabs in the current programme are unnecessary

or that the regime at the moment is "too many"

I know that there are people on MN who believe that all vaccinations should be stopped and people should be treated as and when they fall ill

There are all opinions of different people, and it is the people who would like certain/many/all vaccinations dropped who I find particularly fascinating. Their approach to risk being so different from that of the establishment. It really interests me.

We have quite a list of things to be dropped so far, no mention of further research on those.

Musukebba I'm not calling it 'mild meningitis' the NHS is.

I had viral meningitis with mumps and my daughter had it with chicken pox. The emergency scenario you describe did not happen to either one of us.

Just about every kid in my school got mumps at the same time as me and I know that 10% of them were not rushed to hospital with meningitis and given emergency antibiotics and lumbar punctures. None of them were.

If mumps is such a threat why was it neither notifiable nor vaccinated against until the widespread introduction of the MMR?

No, I think you're reading too much into what people say. People are saying "this scares me" or "I've been warned this is ineffective" and it's you and expat saying "right so that's that one out".

Would you like to see more research, Isnt?