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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that there is a witch hunt against Andrew Wakefield?

564 replies

MagalyZz · 24/05/2010 20:25

I just can't believe that they're still gunning for this guy!?

Whatever you make of his research, it WAS his research and he found what he found and he should be allowed to "suggest a link"

I have a child on the spectrum who had the MMR and I do not think the MMR had anything to do with it, but I do believe Dr Wakefield that a tiny percentage of people do react very badly to this vaccine.

Leave the guy alone ffs!!

OP posts:
slug · 25/05/2010 10:44

Wannabe, the point in vaccinating against Mumps is that it's a serious disease. Even though I wasn't vaccinated as a child, nor were my peers, I didn't catch it until I was an adult, at which point the consequences were serious and damn near fatal.

ooojimaflip · 25/05/2010 10:52

He called a press conference based on a study with a sample size of 12.

YABU.

cyberseraphim · 25/05/2010 11:02

I think Andrew Wakefield was foolish and misguided and had a very unrealistic view of his own (self) importance when he called in the press - not a malicious person . However as it is reported that he has worked in US for years without a licence to practice medicine there either the ruling won't really affect him.

ooojimaflip · 25/05/2010 11:12

Zepherine - " As more children receive mumps vaccine, it is expected that cases will become more common in older children than in younger ones."

This statement doesn't tell us anything about whether the number of infections in older children will go up or down though.

ooojimaflip · 25/05/2010 11:20

Zepherine - Actually if you go into the position paper that is an abstract of, the position is :-
"Routine mumps vaccination is recommended in countries
with a well established, effective childhood vaccination
programme and the capacity to maintain highlevel
vaccination coverage with measles and rubella
vaccination (that is, coverage that is >80%) and where
the reduction of mumps incidence is a public health
priority. Based on mortality and disease burden,
WHO considers measles control and the prevention of
congenital rubella syndrome to be higher priorities
than the control of mumps. In countries that decide to
use mumps vaccine, the combination of mumps vaccine
with measles and rubella vaccines is recommended."

wahwah · 25/05/2010 11:22

Yabu. He was a stupid and arrogant man who caused a lot of unnecessary damage.

lovechoc · 25/05/2010 11:24

I always said his research was a pile of . Turns out I was right. It's just ashame he's managed to cause such a fuss over the MMR. If his research hadn't been published more children probably would have been vaccinated by now - instead of his ridiculous scare mongering.

LindenAvery · 25/05/2010 11:24

Zep - I was refering to the UK

lovechoc · 25/05/2010 11:25

didn't realise his sample was only the size of 12! That makes it even more absurd and laughable.

electra · 25/05/2010 11:27

Spidermama - I have often wondered that about chicken pox. My friends who think other people are completely wrong not to vaccinate (and 'irresponsible') will say that there is no need for a CP vaccine and they would prefer their kids to catch it naturally. I wonder why this is? Complications can arise from any illness after all.

Kind of shows the power of government propaganda.

bubbleymummy · 25/05/2010 11:27

If you want to see how scare tactics can influence vaccination just visit a US parenting forum. The majority are terrified of chickenpox. Just wait a few years and we'll be hearing horror stories and anecdotes about the dangers of chickenpox and everyone will be grateful that there is a vaccine available and anyone who refuses that vaccine because they remember what cp was actually like and how common it was will be called selfish and irresponsible and will be accused of putting all children at risk.

If the government were genuinely concerned about measles outbreaks after the decline in use of the mmr they would have kept the single vaccine available. The one that was STILL availble when AW recommended that it be used until further research had been carried out into the mmr vaccine. Regardless of whether or not that further research (which still hasn't been done in the subset ghat he identified) came to nothing, parents deserve the choice and the opportunity to make their own mind up about which vaccine they want.

TheBoyWithaSORNedMX5 · 25/05/2010 11:28

ooojimaflip - good call.

I read that WHO statement as meaning that mumps would become more common in older groups and missed out the "than in", iyswim. I bet I'm not the only one.

MilaMae · 25/05/2010 11:29

YABVU

No reputable scientist has managed to establish the link Wakefield said existed.

Wakefield put the needs of vulnerable children below his desire to prove a theory.He put children showing signs of autism through lumber punctures and colonoscopies that they didn't need.

He had financial interests in the outcome of his research. He had taken money from solicitors hoping to bring cases against vaccine manufactures.

He had also lodged a patent for a new vaccine against measles.

He swept aside ethics and rules- taking blood at a bday party,failing to inform a GP after trying his vaccine on a child.

lovechoc · 25/05/2010 11:30

and I can remember working with HVs back in 2000 administering the MMR vaccine and when asking their opinions on the link between autism and MMR they were all in agreement there is no such link. Roll on 10 years later and - wow! - it really was just scare mongering.

Like any vaccine there's going to be a very small percentage of the population going to react badly but that applies to any vaccine not just MMR. It's not rocket science and you don't need to conduct a study to know this.

auntpolly · 25/05/2010 11:30

YABU, he abused his position and stated findings in a press conference that were not backed up by his tiny, statistically flawed study. Not to mention the financial gain he made from conducting the study. He's not fit to practice. It shouldn't have taken so long to conduct the investigation though.

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/28/andrew-wakefield-mmr-vaccine

LindenAvery · 25/05/2010 11:36

'Among the patients for whom vaccination status was reported, 88% had received at least 1 dose of mumps-containing vaccine, and 75% had received 2 doses.'

And Zep - the first few words before the percentages mke all the difference!

silverfrog · 25/05/2010 11:59

Redwine: I clearly say in my post that dd1 was showing signs of autism pre-mmr. Dd2 is unvaccinated, and will remain so until I fully understand the implications of giving her jabs (she has possible mitochondrial dysfunction, something that has been conveniently ignored by paeds because the outcome is that she may be susceptible to vaccines, and she has an older sister with autism already. I suspect her notes read soething along the lines of ?loopy mother insists that mmr causes ASD, or similar )

Seeker: for the last time, Wakefield NEVER stated there was alink between mmr and autism. He suggested a possibility that there was a link between mmr and autistic enterocolitis, I believe. That is very different.

This whole thing has become sucha game of smoke and mirrors, with misquotes (both deliberate and accidental) all over the place. (not aimed at you, I mena in general over the last 12 years).

Wakefield hypothesised that there might be a link between mmr and a new form of bowel disease. He recommended that more safety studies take place on the mmr, and that singles should be made available, and used, for children who might be affected.

Along the way, this has been mixed up with a whole host of other things ? media spin, claims of ?anti-vaxxers? scaremongering, claims of ?pro-vaxxers? scaremongering, etc etc. It has all got into such a state that it is now impossible to report side effects form vaccines (most are dismissed, a few filed wrongly, lots just ignored).

The case, as I see it, is as follows:

MMR is safe for the vast majority of children. If you look at what Wakefield actually said - it was very little. He has repeatedly reminded people he is talking about a small subgroup of the autism population. He has repeatedly said MMR is safe for the majority. He has told people t vaccinate and said his own children have been vaccinated with the MMR

He didn't even say don't vaccinate he said use singles (and no not his singles before someone repeats Brian Deer without actually reading the patent application for themselves).

There is a theory that a small subgroup of predisposed children react badly to vaccines and develop bowel problems and neuropsychiatric problems as a consequence. Whether the vaccine schedule, as a whole, is a factor by presenting an cumulative, synergistic immunological insult or whether one or two specific vaccines or elements of them could act as a trigger is not known, and is suspected to vary from individual to individual. In terms of predisposition issues such as; an impaired ability to process mercury and aluminium, low gluthathione production levels and mitochondrial malfunction have been identified (among others). Family medical histories of autoimmune disease, in particular diabetes, have been identified as risk factors. Children usually have similarities in their own medical histories such as recurrent ear/upper repository infections, heavy antibiotic use, heavy paracetamol use, food allergies, intolerance to casein and gluten, constipation/diarrhoea, upset sleep patterns and often eczema. Many of the children reacted at the time of vaccination by very high fever, screaming for long periods, sleep disturbances, swelling at injection site.

So that is the theory. The reason this theory has been developed is because thousands of children have been observed following this pattern.

Although many children have been observed, in reality, compared to the high numbers vaccinated, there are statistically very few (although devastating if you are one of them). Because we are talking low numbers presenting a rare reaction most epidemiological studies will not detect an association (and cannot prove causation anyway).

When the MMR was first introduced to the UK three vaccines were licensed. Two of those vaccines contained the Urabe mumps strain.

Despite the fact that use of Urabe strain MMRs had led to unacceptably high rates of meningitis in Canada which led to the vaccines being withdrawn, the vaccines were introduced to the UK. I guess UK officials thought that they would give the vaccines a second chance and see if UK kids were more resistant to developing meningitis than Canadian kids. They weren't. The same thing happened in Japan. The vaccines were (eventually) withdrawn

It was at this point, before anyone had heard of Dr Wakefield, that public confidence in the MMR faltered and vaccination rates dropped. It was at this point that the UK government put all their eggs in one basket and went all out for the third remaining vaccine the MMRII. Single vaccines were discouraged and later made unavailable

Seems to me that about 95% of this controversy is about measles. No child actually needs the MMR. Children's health could be better, more safely and more judiciously safeguarded by the use of single vaccines

Re: the many studies that apparently disprove Wakefield?s hypothesis. A lot of the press releases accompanying papers 'proving' the safety of the MMR have been disingenuous to say the least as they have suggested that these papers disproved Wakefield's hypothesis when they haven't even tested it. Instead they've tested the 'MMR has caused the rise in autism' hypothesis, which seems to have been made up to disprove.

the bulk of evidence suggests that there is no association between MMR and ASD at population level. (I would debate the methodology and impartiality of much of that evidence but that is probably a whole new thread.) the large scale studies neither address Wakefield's findings nor provide data which sheds any light on the soundness of his hypothesis. They also, unfortunately, do nothing to help the suffering of his patients.

why is data that is irrelevant to the clinical findings in a small subgroup being held up as evidence that that small subgroup doesn't exist, (something the authors of the studies admit themselves is beyond the scope of the data)?

Why is the man who identified the subgroup being lied about and misrepresented?

Why is his science (that has never been put to test let alone found to be flawed) being censored?
Why are the numerous other relevant papers by Dr Wakefield and others never mentioned?

Why are we constantly told that his findings have never been replicated when they have?

How can it be that whilst it has gradually become accepted that many autistic children have intestinal disorders, the man who made this discovery is being subjected to an extreme media smear campaign and is being accused by the GMC of misconduct because his team examined autistic children with bowel disorders the GMC is, by implication, denying exist in autistic children
regardless of the politics of all this, the science of the 1998 Lancet paper, and the subsequent research it has led to, remains unchallenged. Still, 12 years later.

You have to start with identification of different autism groups, and crucially (if you want ot test the Wakefield hypothesis) the right sub group of ASD children/patients

the research has just not been done. It all treats autism as one thing, and it all examines MMR versus the rise in autism. Which isn't and never has been the question. So the MMR research out there isn't much use in making a decision anyone who has children at risk of vaccine damage, or autism.

The only way to figure out what has happened to the children in question is to examine the children in question and perform clinical studies.

Clinical studies that have been done implicate MMR and they remain unchallenged. The people who have performed these clinical studies have made themselves very unpopular and are being picked apart by the medical community, the press and the GMC. The science remains untouched though

On the ethical side, the GMC findings were interesting to say the least.

If you read the judgement it seems to centre around the way children were recruited into the research study. So in some cases parents contacted him directly after hearing about him. That doesn't seem particularly unethical to me. Supposedly he used the wrong diagnosis. In Jauary the new criteria for diagnosis was revealed (as a first draft). They are using the same scheme as Wakefield.

He supposedly ordered clinically unnecessary tests. Yet if you read the consensus for treatment of gastrointestinal disorders in autism published in pediatrics in January you find that he followed that (judging by symptoms described in the hearings).

So the doctors who failed to investigate gut problems in autistic children didn't fail in their duties at all, then? Only Wakefield... he is definitely a scapegoat

The procedures were ethical providing they were carried out with clinical need. Wakefield says they were, the GMC says they weren't.

If you read the judgment you can decide for yourself. Parents clearly wanted their child investigated and believed there was a clinical need. There seems to be an acceptance that the children were presenting with histories of abdominal symptoms although these weren't always mentioned in referrals. Of course it's hard to demonstrate a clinical need in advance when you are looking at a new disorder.

The GMC seems to be saying that any child with regressive autism rather than disintegrative disorder should not have been included. Never mind that they're different names for the pretty much the same thing. The only difference between them is the age of onset. Up to 2 for autism, 3+ for CDD

In January this year the journal Pediatrics published a consensus report on how gastrointetinal disorders in autism should be evaluated, treated and managed.

Read that, then the judgment, and you will find that the methods used fall well within this consensus. Ten years ago they were meeting standards laid down this year. And yet they were supposedly acting unethically. Maybe someone could explain it to me.

This quote is particularly relevant I think, especially when you remember the children did have clinical indications or gastrointestinal disease:

"Empiric treatment, initiated by a gastroenterologist or specialist skilled in understanding neurenteric dysregulation, may be warranted for some patients without other indicators of disease, such as weight loss, fever, and bloody stools, before proceeding to invasive evaluations. However, for children with ASDs, behavioral indicators may be the only manifestation of pain, and determining who should be evaluated medically and who should be treated empirically can be problematic. Evaluating all children may result in some with IBS and FAP having potentially unnecessary invasive evaluations; treating children empirically may delay identification of morbidities that could be remedied by medical or surgical intervention." Ethics approval was given for children with 'disintigrative disorder' who had received a "measles/rubella" vaccination.

A lot of the included participants had regressive autism and MMR.

The GMC is saying that 'disintigrative disorder and regressive autism are not the same thing (they are) and that only children who received a single measles or MR vaccination should have been included. See how clever it is? Suddenly he's acted unethically

Eg A child is referred to Wakefield with diarrhoea/abdominal pains/frequent soiling but this isn't mentioned on the referal letter. However it is noted at the initial examination including descriptions of the child's cries of pain (read pediatrics for the relevance of that). A request is then put in for a colonoscopy but crucially the doctor writes on the colonoscopy request something like ?needed for investigation into autistic 'disintigrative disorder.? Now of course you shouldn't do a colonoscopy for autism alone. But it's fine yes because the examination and case history revealed the gastrointestinal issues and the GMC knows that because they have recorded it in the judgement. Oh but hang on it didn't say it on the colonoscopy request form so ........they ruled no clinical need.

Wakefield says btw that colonscopies were covered under a 1986 project ethics approval

Oh, and btw, GMC didn't actually have a problem with the payment at the kids birthday birthday (one charge they didn't hold against him). they had a problem with him joking bauot it at a conference, but no problem with the £5 in the party bags...

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 25/05/2010 12:05

"Children's health could be better, more safely and more judiciously safeguarded by the use of single vaccines"

This is wrong.

ArthurPewty · 25/05/2010 12:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

ZephirineDrouhin · 25/05/2010 12:15

Linden - the vaccination status was known for 91% of patients under 19 (see here), and in this group the proportion of vaccinated kids was even higher - 93% having had one dose and 85% having had two.

I don't have any particular axe to grind about this, and am generally pro-vaccination, but it does seem to me that there is a question over the wisdom of vaccinating small children against mumps given that the vaccination seems so much less effective than exposure to the virus in conferring immunity.

LindenAvery · 25/05/2010 12:21

Pertinent post silverfrog - a lot of good points.

However "Children's health could be better, more safely and more judiciously safeguarded by the use of single vaccines' - this I do not agree with for all. MMR is the better option in this case.

There is also difficulty with some of the studies you call for in terms of controls to make the study valid.

And I still believe he went about it in the wrong way - some of the things you have asked: Why is the man who identified the subgroup being lied about and misrepresented?

Why is his science (that has never been put to test let alone found to be flawed) being censored?
Why are the numerous other relevant papers by Dr Wakefield and others never mentioned?

Why are we constantly told that his findings have never been replicated when they have?

He has to take some responsibility for this - and I don't think it will ever be resolved.

pigletmania · 25/05/2010 12:25

I feel it was media also hyping it all up! You just do not go on one piece of evidence, there has to be further research and investigation imo. Much like the Professor Roy Meadows theories on child abuse which was late discredited.

bubbleymummy · 25/05/2010 12:26

Excellent post silverfrog.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 25/05/2010 12:30

piglet - yes the media is as guilty as Wakefield for hyping up an issue that they didn't understand.

LindenAvery · 25/05/2010 12:31

Zeph - fair point - although it could be argued that it would be better to expose all children to mumps under the age of 10 to receive immunity - but this can't happen because of the problem of older contacts.

There are no easy answers here - where does the better option lie? To allow all children to be exposed to mumps to protect them getting it as adults and accept that some will get viral meninigitis or become deaf? Vaccinate children to protect them young and hope everyone sticks to the vaccination schedule to reduce the amount of wild virus circulating to prevent adults from catching it?

Vaccinate everyone in one go? Can see that being popular!