to think that there is a witch hunt against Andrew Wakefield?

[MagalyZz]

I just can't believe that they're still gunning for this guy!?

Whatever you make of his research, it WAS his research and he found what he found and he should be allowed to "suggest a link"

I have a child on the spectrum who had the MMR and I do not think the MMR had anything to do with it, but I do believe Dr Wakefield that a tiny percentage of people do react very badly to this vaccine.

Leave the guy alone ffs!!

Silverfrog WRT to BBC- how many live / hotmail accounts can one person own I wonder?

Yes.

I completely accept that people are free to believe what they want but I don't understand why people are persistently asking for a subsequent paper disproving a link between what they believe happened and an invention. The view that the sub groups is an invention is a very frequently discussed one so why should it surprise anyone ? feel as I have I have said something new or unusual whereas it really isn't. If such a paper is required for some purpose then you will have to write it yourself.

And my thoughts on the multiple autisms are not new either; I typed them out in length on MN only a few days ago in fact.

Sooner or later austism will be broken down into subgroups, and these may or may not include bowel disorders- the point is we don't know. I do know that my children have bowelm issues, that they ere both (and me, and their younger sibling) born with food intolerances such as casein, we knew that ,ong before ASD became a concern, and we were prescribed specialist formula from a few months of age. So, the subgroup does exist; whether it is a clinically significant one I don't know.

And thanks for the suggestions wrt to research butb I alrwady have a few irtons in fires in the eventb that I can afford (Somewhat unlikey atm but who knows?) to complete my MA. I've already got two dissertations planned LOL, I reckon a third might be overkill

actually, i haven't ever come across the view that the sub group doesn't exist.

I have come across people who don't know it exists, and also across many people who accept it exists, but then actually ignore the distinction (as in the many studies carried out since 1998)

on a separate scale, the gmc, and the "establishment" as a whole, by backing all the studies which "disprove" the theory without examining the sub group, are, in fact senying these children exist.

but that is subtly different from claiming there is no subgroup in the way that you are.

The establishment knows or suspects the subgroup exists but they are covering it up ? Is there is particular reason why ? Is it because they are in the pay of Vaccine Overlords who subsidise their crazed lifestyle - because I've certainly come across that idea. Great movie material.

god, I am really sorry ot have to do this, and please, if anyone whose child I mention is unhappy with this, do feel free to ask for deletion.

cyber. do you really think my dd1, with gluten and dairy intolerances, is in the same gut group (for want of a better term) as your ds (who I believe is not gf? sorry if I am wrong)

orthat either of them are in the same gut group as pagwatch's ds, who regressed after mmr?

or even sancti's boys, who are in a completely different group of casein intolerance form my dds (form what I have read)?

yes, the "establishment" (again for want of a better term) know the sub group exists. wakefield detailed it all (and htis is where the thread descends into groundhog day, as you come back and say "but they didn't"), and, as presented in the 1998 paper, found a new form of bowel disease.....

and yes, the group is being denied (along with any mention of treating a leaky gut on the NHS,as a knee jerk reaction) - you ought to try mentioning gut issues inan autistic child to your gp, and see what they say.

Just because some people have conspiracy thories does not mean everything any of us questions is worthless

I don't do conspiracies: they might exist but I think i'd quickly go mad if I went down that route

I try and deal with facts and teh absolute basics behind the real life people affected by all this, and indeed their wide variations. The avriations is something that fascinates me; I can walk into an ASD group one day and meet nobody like ds3, the next group I go to there are many like him (and I am certain of his DX in terms of correct for current definitions).

My DS does not have any condition that needs any sort of diet and he is not coelic (spelling?) so he would not need a gluten free diet in any event. He is not in any 'gut group'. If a child autistic or not has digestive problems (common in al children ASD or NT) then these need to be looked at obviously but it's the link or connection that remains pure conjecture - I accept that you and others don't believe that and I have no problem with that but it's important that all views are represented.

but that'sthe point, cyber.

wakefied et al were gut doctors. they obviously saw children with gut issues.

whilst going about their business doing htis, they noticed a group of children who had symptoms in common.

they investigated further.

they found a NEW form of bowel disease, which had never been documented before (well, durr, it wasnew!)

one of the things that the group of children had in common was autism.

this new form of bowel disease has not been found in the gut of a non-autistic child.

there is your link.

and this is what wakefield et al presented in the case series.

wakefield hypothesised (because of some of the things he found) that there MAY be a link also to mmr. this was alomst a side issue at the time, his main point was about the bowel disease.

he suggested further research to find out whether mmr was indeed partly responsible.

he recommended that parents of susceptible children might wish to exercise caution, and use singles (which were available at the time)

and all hell broke loose. he was hounded out of the country, and thenout of his prfession. he has been called all sorts, and "discredited"

most people now believe he is guilty of extraordinary torture and experimentation on children.

and all because he noticed soemthing in the guts of asome autistic children, and talked about it.

sorry if any of the above is garbled - have 2 children pulling me away to take them up to bed.

Cyber do know about the introduction of the Urabe strain MMR?

And do you know that following its withdrawal SmithKlineBeecham (now GSK) were given indemnity by the government?

Are you aware that the doctor who first flagged the problem with the drug thalidomide was struck off in an attempt by those responsible to cover their arses?

This sort of thing has happened before so it is hardly unreasonable to think it is within the realms of the possible in this case. Especially given the systematic intimidation and smearing of the doctors involved.

They have just struck off Professor Walker Smith for not knowing when a colonoscopy is indicated or not for crying out loud. Walker Smith is one of Europe's leading and most respected paediatric gastroenterologists.

Of course there is no conspiracy to poison or damage a generation of children - that would be ridiculous. I watched a video of Wakefield being interviewed yesterday and he was asked whether he thought there was some sort of conspiracy. He kinda laughed and said he didn't believe in conspiracies but he did believe in incompetency.

There is no conspiracy here and it is just derailing to try to paint people who express concerns over the safety of poorly tested triple vaccines and an entirely untested vaccine schedule as paranoid crazies.

What has happened here is an overzealous public health policy has been shown to have a flaw and those responsible for the flaw are trying to cover their arses. That's all. It's human nature.

yep, I'm right with you BEachcomber (dh has taken children off to bed )

I think there was a point, rigth at the very beginning, when someone could have said ", really? well, let's look into it"

but they didn't.

they chose silence,and then a drip drip of smearing.

and then, because that is the way of the world, step after step had to be taken on that road.

and each step committed people further.

and then the point of no return was reached, and passed, and the only thing that is left is to keep on denying until the bitter end, andhope that it is someone else's head that rolls when the house of cards comes tumbling down.

Because it is always going to be someone else's problem.

Wakefield has published I believe 19 papers describing the gut condition first identified in the Lancet paper sub group. (NONE of which ever seem to get talked about). Other scientists such as Krigsman and the teams in Italy and Venezuela have documented the same gut condition as that discovered by Wakefield.

Wakefield has actually published about 120 papers in total - many of them examining other inflammatory conditions and atypical viral exposure. He has written a 250 page document on MMR safety alone.

He didn't just pop up out of nowhere.

Also we know there is a link between the gut problems and the autistic behaviours because some of the children's behaviour improves when their guts are treated. We also know that the type of inflammation these children present is consistent with a viral exposure. We also know that atypical viral exposure in a population (especially to measles) increases their risk of developing IBS/Crohn's/ulcerative colitis. A triple vaccine is about an atypical viral exposure as it is possible to get. Oh and why do we know all this? Because Wakefield amongst others has published paper after paper after paper on it.

We also know of other gut conditions such as coeliac which affect people's behaviour.

The concept of a gut condition affecting the brain and behaviour is known and accepted by medical science. Much of the phenomenon is little understood but we know it happens.

There is a complex biological puzzle going on here but all the parts which have so far come together (including report after report after report from parents of their children developing gut issues and behaviour problems after an atypical viral exposure) point to an adverse reaction to the MMR.

There is much much more to this such as mitochondrial dysfunction, impaired gluthatione production, impaired vitamin B12 absorption, skewed cytokine production and so on. But it all adds up, it all makes sense and it all places MMR firmly in the picture.

Wakefield explains much of this in the video I linked to. The science here is ground breaking and immensely interesting. There is a lot of it and I understand that most people have neither the time nor the interest for it but I wish people who don't even know this science exists would refrain from making out those who have read it are deluded in coming to the conclusion they have.

cyber of cpurse it's pure conjecture- until we know better

which is why people research surely, to rule things out?

at some stage the link between smoking and cancer, folic acid and spina bifida, age and downs syndrome was pure conjectue then someone did research

it is the job of a scientist to spot potential patterns, as he did

I happen to think for my boys the casein is linked but perhaps only as an indicator of having the asd genes (I suspect with us the casein and asd gene is one and same). Only one responds to a gf diet though; he is not cooeliac though there seems to be more info emerging about coeliac intolerances which I suspect is the case

DS4 was kept off gluten until 2 and is still BF and yes has some OCD type symptoms nbut seems ASD free; of course a link flags to me. Were I a scientist observing that in several famillies I would be right to study it.

however what a researcher shouldn't so is assume a link, only wish to investigate the presence of one; Im imagine we will hit on many, many correlations before we start to find the causes

but without studying alla cvenues we won't find the causes; and there's just that chance that the causes being found will help some kids so its worth it

Well as long as he funds the research himself and only experiments on plants and not children or animals then why not. Further research into anything could be done, it tells us nothing about the value or the purpose of the anything.

Silverfrog I agree with you on the drip drip thing. There must be a whole bunch of people who just never thought this would get so big and so they just kept digging themselves into a bigger and bigger whole.

Or feeding the hungry lie as the indomitable Handley describes it.

What perfect timing 'experimenting on children' just fed the hungry lie...

I don't know that much about thalidomide but the doctor who discovered the link was struck off 30 years after identifying the link for un related reasons. The thalidomide link was never disputed by anyone in scientific terms but the company tried to limit liabilty on technical legal grounds.

Sorry I phrased that badly - he was struck off over debendox.

' Further research into anything could be done, it tells us nothing about the value or the purpose of the anything. '

Well that's just silly

as a parent of two asd children with digestive, immune and bowel issues, if someone sees a link between these then I am glad that funding is available.

Dunding research oneself would be the complete opposite of good surely? We want researchers semi-mired in an ethical minefield; but there is absolutely no reason why his research should not have been done from the perspective of a gastroenterologist. Now, I get that how it was done causews isues for some people but the research itself seems reasonable.

What if he had found a spoiotive link? Sutely that would be a good thing? Or cyber do you not think kids with ASD could have pockets of underlying disorders that make them probe to (sometimes painful) side effects?

If the further research is funded by those who believe it's needed and it's not unethical then why not. But equally one could say, why not engage with the scientific community and discuss the findings (and lack of) without a pre existing belief that the hypotheis is a priori valid and worthy of research - when we don't know that.

I don't want to have the last 'cyber word' as that can become competitive and nothing new comes up. Thomas is well known as the name of a little tank engine much beloved of autistic children, but it was also the name of disciple who was criticised by Jesus for requiring too high a level of proof. I think that Thomas is my role model...

I have enjoyed the debate. It is necessary to have people with a strong motivation to find the truth. It can sound patronising to say nice things when it has been such a heated debate but yes it is vitally important to challenge orthodoxy and the 'establishment' but I just don't think this is the right issue.

Sooty I agree with so much of what you say. I can't for the life of me understand why people do not choose to see what is happening.

When you take a step back and look at all the info concerning not only the scientific examination of these children, but also the systematic persecution of the doctors involved, it is utterly clear that there are major strings being pulled.

I don't understand how people can ignore info like the decision to introduce the Urabe strain MMR to the UK after it had clearly been shown to be dangerous in Canada. Some of the damaged children Wakefield has documented were damaged by this now withdrawn vaccine. This vaccine is known to be dangerous and to have caused damage - it is no longer used in the UK and yet people do not want to believe that it damaged anybody. I do not understand this obstinate head in the sand attitude. The DoH try to claim that MMR has an exemplary safety record, but quite clearly it doesn't because two out of the original 3 brands have been withdrawn in more than one country FFS.

I don't see how people can ignore that the judge who pulled the Legal Aid from the UK MMR litigants was the brother of a GSK director.

Also both the Lancet and Neurotoxicology which are the journals which have censored Wakefield's work are owned by publishing group Elesiver - the owner of which is a major shareholder in GSK.

The owner of the Sunday Times is also a major shareholder. Deer in working to smear Wakefield in the times received advice and assistance from the Association of British Pharmaceutical Industry funded and controlled company Medico Legal Investigations Limited. Nuki the man who commissioned Deer to work on the Wakefield story has a brother who was on the committee which originally decided to introduce the known to be dangerous Urabe MMR to the UK.

There is more of this but even on the just the details above this thing stinks to high heaven.

But I say that and then I remember the day I read something that made the penny drop with me and I realised that not only has MMR done this damage but that the manufacturers and the government know fine well it has. I remember I just sat shaking my head in tears because I could hardly bring myself to believe it. I can see that people don't want to face up to inconvenient and disturbing truths so they cling to the authority of the state and the puppet figures of Deer, Goldacre, Salisbury, Offit and so on. Nobody who has read the science and examined the epidemiology can conclude that MMR vaccines are not linked to autism and that includes Goldacre and his cronies. (Oh and Goldacre has some murky connections with Rutter one of the authors of the infamous Japanese study).

I don't know how they live with themselves.

Cyber with regards to what you say about proof - we are not demanding too high a level of proof. The scientific evidence and the damaged children it documents are there under our eyes for anyone to see. There is plenty of evidence which documents that not only was MMR poorly tested and monitored but that it damages some children. We just ask that this evidence is not censored, buried, smeared, distorted, misrepresented and lied about.

With all this lying and covering up we are in danger of losing public confidence in the vaccine programme - and then where will we be?

Have you watched the video of Wakefield presenting the science yet? Genuine question.