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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

do i have a bad reputation at school or something?

113 replies

cryingfoul · 24/05/2010 20:11

I'm not really sure how to describe this as i don't know what happened myself! I was talking with some other mums from my Dc's primary school last week and I said that I thought schools should tell parents a bit about the teachers e.g. how many years teaching experience they have, what specialisms etc. The five other Mums took me up wrong.. thought I was talking about our school and got a bit heated, saying that I needed to trust the head and similar things. I tried to explain, then got fed up and left and put it out of my mind.
Then three days later the head asks to see me in private. I follow her to her room with no idea what she wants to talk about, and guess what it was? One of the mum's had spoken of her concerns and the head wnated to tell me that the teachers won't accept it and it is the school governors business anyway! She backed down a bit when I repeated exactly what I'd said and a bit more when I said I had a right to hold a private opinion. But this is weird isn't it? For that mum (whoever she is) to run to the head and for the head to request a mettign with me citing the data protction act! Or am I being unreasonable?

OP posts:
frakkit · 25/05/2010 09:39

I can generalise it If you have QTS you can teach in any key-stage that you hold an appropriate qualification for.

It's entirely possible that someone who qualified in secondary maths can make a good primary teacher BUT they have little training in the primary curriculum as they trained to teach secondary maths and they weren't trained for KS1/2. I'd want to know that. Replace maths with any other subject...

Clearly it would be fab for the numeracy aspect of the curriculum and some teaching skills are universal but it's not what they trained as. Of course, it's more likely to go the other way as jobs in primary are like hens teeth so primary trained teachers end up teaching secondary.

Put it the other way - my first degree is music. I would be, in theory, qualified to teach music to A-level: relevant degree + QTS but I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't be familiar with the curriculum, subject teaching strategies, levelling.... a whole host of things (entirely hypothetical - am no longer in the UK)

A good teacher is a good teacher regardless of the bits of paper they have but as it stands you can teach anything you're deemed 'appropriately qualified' to teach. It doesn't matter whether you got your QTS by PGCE/SCITT/European equivalency, you have QTS. Finito. I personally don't really agree with that and I'd want to know if it was happening. It doesn't mean they're a bad teacher, it could be an excellent thing but equally it could be a disaster.

frakkit · 25/05/2010 09:39

an appropriate subject qualification

sapell3 · 25/05/2010 09:57

Just to mention that you don't have to have a teaching qualification to teach in a private school.

islandofsodor · 25/05/2010 11:51

I like knowing my children's teacher specialisms at primary level. I like for example that the school has 3 music specialists, it tells me that the musical life of the school as a whole os likely to be good.

I also like that the deputy head/year 6 teacher used to teach in a school that went up to age 13.

I like that the reception teacher has only ever taught early years.

Knwoing a brielf bit about the background of all the teachers shows me that overall the teaching staff have a good range of backgrounds and experience.

Shaz10 · 25/05/2010 12:11

frakkit there's all sorts of other training in place to help people move key stages. A list of qualifications would not reflect that.

ILovePlayingDarts · 25/05/2010 12:12

I like the idea of some "get to know you" sort of info about the teachers.

I also think that the Head was out of order in trying to pull up a parent for what in effect was expressing personal opinion, something we are all entitled to.

And if people have conerns about any head teacher, go to the Governors. We don't slavishly adhere to whatever the head wants to do (althogh I have come across schools where governors did indeed just rubber stamp the head's proposals). We governors can and will over-ride the head if it is in the interests of the school.

Joolyjoolyjoo · 25/05/2010 12:23

I am quite shocked at the other mum grassing you up to the HT, and at the HT "having a word"!! I stood and bitched discussed this morning with other mums about how we felt the school was charging too much for school produced CDs etc- would be horrified if the HT called me in for a word about it!!

AS regards having basic info about teachers, I think it might be nice, if not especially important. Last year apparently dd had another (??student) teacher take over her class for a bit, and I had no idea whether her own teacher had left/ who the "new" teacher was- only found out from another parent, so a little bit of communication might have avoided confusion. I don't go to the school often (dd gets the bus), so I am often clueless for half the year what her teacher even looks like! Not that it is a huge deal, but I guess it's nice to know who will be in loco parentis 6 hours a day! Would you leave your child with a babysitter you had never met, as long as she/ he had an appropriate childcare qualification? I wouldn't, but I have been happily sending dd to school without knowing the first thing about her teacher- food for thought!!

frakkit · 25/05/2010 12:26

But presumably a small profile would be able tell you that?

I don't want to see their full CV! I'm interested in seeing that they're appropriately qualified and trained to do what they're doing.

Honestly all I'd want to know is "Miss X has a BEd and has taught at ABC school for 4 years as Year 3 class teacher and 2 years as Year 2 class teacher" or "Mr Y has a BSc in Chemistry, a PGCE in middle years (Science) and has been teaching Year 6 at ABC for 3 years" or "Mrs Z has a BA in modern languages and a PGCE in secondary MFL with 10 years experience in secondary schools before entering the primary sector 6 years ago. She has been at ABC for 2 years teaching Year 3."

The point I'm trying to make, albeit probably quite confusedly, is that it's perfectly legal for someone to teach primary even if they didn't train in primary without any additional training. If they have done extra training then what is there to hide?

I guess I'm just wary as my friend is teaching in a school in Birmingham where 25% of the staff don't actually have UK QTS, 4 teachers have a primary PGCE, people are routinely asked to teach outside their specialism and this is a state secondary. So yeah, I'd want to know what their qualifications were and I'd probably ask for that information if it wasn't made available in any case.

Way off track from the OP though. I just happen agree with her personal opinion and that's why.

homebirthmummy4 · 25/05/2010 12:31

i think it would be nice to know a little about teachers interests eg music, craft, languages etc. after all i am sure most teachers put far more sensitive info out on the likes of fb. on the other hand, my teenage dds have an english teacher who often updates them on her personal (eg love) life! that is a little tmi

cryingfoul · 25/05/2010 12:38

You see the thing is I am not really all that bothered either way if the school tells the parents about the teachers. For me its a nice to have, but not that important. It was just a throw away comment which the others seemed to perceive as an insult against our HT (though god knows how as I didn't even mention her). Then I don't know what the HT was told but by the time she spoke to me she was saying things that implied that I'd been proposing publishing it on the school web, which is apparently a deplorable and likely illegal thought to have.

So, in the cold light of day, I'd say that there are some people who do not like me and so whatever I say, they are preparing to be appalled as I open my mouth. I know I'm not the head's favourite because I had to complain about something that DS's teacher was doing to him three months ago. The HT stopped it - she had no choice as it was against school policy, and possibly illegal - but I know I've been in her bad books since as she obviously doesn't like any weaknesses to be exposed.
Yesterday she obviously thought she had her chance to get back at me.

OP posts:
cryingfoul · 25/05/2010 12:43

I thought I was on friendly acquaintance level with four of the people I was talking to, and the fifth is a bit hostile, but she seems that way to most new parents so I did not take it personally. I'll be wary of them all now though... but assuming they haven't read this, then I'm going to just smile and say "good morning" to them each day and make sure I never comment on anything again in their earshot.

OP posts:
Pushmeinthepool · 25/05/2010 13:19

I would say to the Head that your words were misunderstood, however what "punishment" did she have in mind for you if you had said/did think what the other mother said you did.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and it certainly isn't any of the Headteachers business as to what your opinions are. That's the thing that would annoy me, the fact that she summoned you to her office. Why should you have to give your side of the story when there is nothing to investigate and nothing wrong has been done?

TiggyR · 25/05/2010 13:25

Haven't read whole thread but my first reeaction is, Woah! What on earth did you say to stir up such a negative reaction?! Were you somehow implying that the teachers were not being honest about their qualifications or something?

My DCs school is independent and they have recently started listing all the teachers qualifications and experience on the 'who's who' section of the school website. I think it's a really good idea. In private schools they can, in theory, employ anyone as a teacher whether they are qualified or not, so it is to put people's minds at rest I suppose.

cryingfoul · 25/05/2010 13:33

Thanks pushmeinthepool. I wish I'd handled the meeting differently. What i did was sort of blurt out this is ridiculous/ can't believe anyone thought it was worth your time/ what I actually said was../ to be clear I was NOT talking about you or your school/ I'm entitled to have an opinion, aren't I?/ next time ask me direct if you want to know what i think.

From what she said I got the impression i was about to have the data protection act explained to me / butt out of Governors business / the teachers won't like it.

All the time the HT had this air of authority and I just knew she'd take some pleasure in telling me that she wouldn't betray a confidence if I asked exactly who had sneaked on me.

OP posts:
cryingfoul · 25/05/2010 13:36

No tiggyr.. I wasn't. I don't know what I said, I really don't. I didn't talk about any teacher in particular, especially as I was referring to all schools not just my own. The bully-mother in the group did say that I should "go to a private school" if I wanted to know a teachers qualification/ experience for the job. I think they just don't like me.

OP posts:
emptyshell · 25/05/2010 13:37

I'm a teacher, a supply one.

It's quite possible that your head DOES have something to hide. There are a lot of schools basically taking the mickey over the workload agreement which allowed them to use unqualified staff to "cover" (but not actively teach - basically hand out pre-prepared "busy work") classes for the first three days of staff absence. Of course, budgets being what they are - we've now got a delightful situation where these "cover supervisors" "learning agents" and various other flim-flam job titles are actively teaching classes for weeks at a time, sometimes being left in charge of an entire curriculum area - without having QTS (sorry, qualified teacher status - education is a world of abbreviations that you can only replicate by throwing a tin of alphabetti spaghetti at a wall). For the average parent who just gets told that "Oh we had Miss Smith for Geography today" they just assume a supply teacher was in or whatever - but they're not teachers of any sort, it's babysitting on the cheap and it sickens me that we'd think that little of our kids that we'd do it.

Admittedly - I have an axe to grind on that front because it affects me personally. I'm a good teacher, I'm an excellent supply teacher and it's something I do through choice because working full-time was having an impact on my health that I wasn't prepared to put up with any longer. I take immense pride in what I do and trying to do it properly (sometimes the odds are stacked against you but that's another story) - to basically get things running as close to normal as I can while the class teacher is away. I'll admit I'm not unbiased on the issue - but it IS going on, and there's disgustingly little media coverage of the great education sellout.

With regards to my qualifications being known - I've got no objection to someone knowing where I trained, what I have (but although I specialised in KS1 and foundation - my PGCE is a generic Primary one, as were those of all the students on my course) - where I've worked... well that's at least seven different schools this month so far. My hobbies and my private life - that's my business I'm afraid. While I might share things into my classroom practice where appropriate (I'm a geek, I'm incredibly good with computers) - I don't really want that as material to be used for parents to weigh up my "worth" as a teacher.

My CRB, and from the middle of this year whenever it comes on board (I think it's July), my safeguarding authority check etc... the school has them on file, Ofsted have access to them to check - I don't believe they should be laid out for public consumption (there's nowt on 'em anyway - but still). There are systems very well established in place to monitor those - Ofsted are hammering schools completely if they don't have copies of CRBs from anyone in contact with the kids.

What I'm not prepared to be judged professionally on, and someone has tried to pull this stunt with me before, is my reproductive status. I have before had a parent try to condemn me as an incompetent teacher (before even meeting me) on the basis that I don't have a child. I don't believe that's ever acceptable and I think that's a gross intrusion of my privacy, not to mention highly offensive. I don't have a child, it's dead... I miscarried... it doesn't make me a worse teacher and I will fight any insinuation that it does. People have tried it - if that level of information becomes demanded of me - I won't work in that school again. To be frank - it's not your business and a line needs to be drawn somewhere.

The thing with teaching is - you really can't judge based on number of years at the chalkface. There are lousy NQTs without a clue, there are fantastic NQTs who will only get better with experience, there are lousy experienced teachers marking the years to retirement who are utterly jaded with the job (it can very easily destroy you), and there are some fantastic experienced teachers - who've seen it all come around before and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to the latest fad or initiative... sadly, lots of the experienced ones are marginalized for new shiny (cheap) NQTs and end up trotting along on supply, unable to get jobs when money is tight, wages are nationally set so we can't work for less, and there's a chronic shortage of jobs.

It's a funny Alice in Wonderland-esque world sometimes teaching.

janajos · 25/05/2010 13:37

I'm a teacher too and would have no problem with anyone seeing my qualifications and length of service. I don't know any teacher that would!! A good teacher however should be able to turn his/her hand to a variety of subjects, not just necessarily one he/she is qualified in.

BTW I think it is most bizarre and unprofessional of the Head to have acted on another parent's words like this not to mention the bitchiness of the other parent.

biddysmama · 25/05/2010 13:40

i am blacklisted at school

my grandad went with me to pick ds up (on my due date for dd) and got to the door without me, ds saw him shouted "grandad" and the teacher let him go despite never meeting my grandad before.. i had told them that in an emergency he would be picked up by grandad

a few days later the head asked to see me and showed me an email from my grandad headed "school safety farce" where he basically ranted about how useless ds's teacher was, how he was reporting them to the lea and how terrible the head was ... it was the first time he had ever been to the school!! i was still pregnant and mortified!! i apologising and telling them i knew nothing about it but i still think they look at me like i'm a loon!

cryingfoul · 25/05/2010 13:50

emptyshell - thanks for your post. I am sorry you had a miscarriage: it is common but no less heartbreaking for that and you have my sympathy especially as it was your only child. However I am shocked that anyone saw fit to consider how many children you have as a qualification for teaching and its even worse that they raised it with you. I don't think anyone on this thread has said anything similar.
I don't think we need to know about teachers private lives (satanic worship aside!). We don't even need to know their hobbies IMO. When I sell my services I answer fully and honestly why I can do the job and I use my experience as proof that i am likely to be able to replicate it. No one is entitled to know about my personal life though (albeit it is very boring anyway!). All I was saying is that it would be nice for parents choosing a new school to know a bit about the professional background of the person who would be teaching their child.

OP posts:
helyg · 25/05/2010 14:02

On my DS' school website it lists the teachers and their qualifications. So for example Mr Jones might have studied a BA in music and then done a PGCE, whereas Miss Evans might have studied a BEd. I find it interesting, I also find it interesting to know what their interests are (for example a teacher might play sport themselves and be interested in teaching it, or another one might be involved with Eisteddfodau outside school and so would be keen to teach singing and reciting). I wouldn't expect to know their entire life history, but a little bit of background info is nice.

The parents who went to the Head to "grass" were way out of line IMHO, and the head was out of line to be so defensive!

Kathyjelly · 25/05/2010 14:03

I think it might be a clash of cultures too. In my industry it's perfectly normal to publish a quick overview of experience when someone takes a new job.

Maybe in teaching it isn't. I wouldn't have thought it was anything to get worked up about though.

sapell3 · 25/05/2010 14:11

Brilliant post, emptyshell.

cryingfoul · 25/05/2010 14:16

kathjelly - it has made me begin to think about whether education isn't a bit rooted in the past.

For a start, how many professionals consider their formal qualification as anything other than a starting point these days?

and how many professionals don't wear a shirt and tie on hot days unless they have a client meeting? But little school children are expected to conform to this 1960's standard. Similarly girls in dresses and skirts.

Even my GP asks me to call him by his first name and I've worked with titled people and with influential people and they all go on first name terms too. But teachers refer to each other as Miss This and Mr That when talking to each other in front of parents. What's the point? I don't think it confers any particular status these days.

OP posts:
Kathyjelly · 25/05/2010 14:27

Giving people their formal titles is just setting a courteous example in front of children I think and the same for uniform, although most schools have a summer verson for warmer weather.

But on the issue of cvs, it does seem odd that schools regards this as sensitive information. The staff are the key asset of any school. If they have someone who has taught in six countries or someone who can teach five languages fluently guiding modern language strategy, that is something
to boast about, not get upset when someone asks. It doesn't have to be extra qualifications, experience is just as valuable IMO.

Even my GP lists her qualifications and universities, and her years in general practice in the surgery brochure.

emptyshell · 25/05/2010 14:59

School uniform's come a long way. When I was at primary we had to wear proper ties (none of those elasticmabobs), shirts, skirts, jumpers... the boys had to wear proper school uniform shorts - even in the middle of winter. These days even the secondary schools have sweatshirts, the girls get to wear trousers (oh how I would have loved to be able to live in trousers) etc etc. I've gone in probably 40% of the primary schools in the 4 LEAs around here (I live between two counties, both with a city and county council) and I've only ever been in two primary schools that still have ties as part of the uniform.

As for the Mrs thing - it's respect and courtesy - and I tend to just refer to other teachers as Mrs in front of parents just out of habit more than anything else - and because they'll be known to the parents as such from newsletters and contact within the school etc. It's no massive secret what my first name is - the kids generally know, but they know I get called Mrs X by them. (Incidentally I hate smug callcentre people who think they can presume to call my by my first name without asking). I say this as someone who had the most unpronounceable, unspellable pain in the rear to be a teacher with, maiden name known to humanity. For me as well, it's got that benefit of having some separation from my "work me" and my "me me"... that's pretty handy when you're faced with a class that are on the attack and trying to crack you - you can remember they're trying to crack Mrs X... not Jane (my name's nothing like Jane btw). Means I've been able to go through some horrible personal stuff, yet step into my mental Mrs suit and still function as normal with work!

I just don't like these schools where things have gone too far the other way, where staff wear school uniform (I always find something faintly unnerving when greeted by a headmaster wearing an adult-size version of the school uniform), where staff are treated as the children - I don't see anything wrong in an acceptance that there are Adults and Children and that sometimes one group does different things to the others (I'd quite like to go on the climbing frame - but I don't).

To be honest, it is starting to look a little like you've got several axes to grind with the school... I can understand why the head does play cards close to their chest regarding teachers - parents can be incredibly obsessional and very very intrusive over teacher they even SUSPECT might be having their classes the following year (I've mentioned the fact I'm childless - I know it's been muttered about in school gate gossip that I shouldn't be a teacher because of it - the gossip always ends up drifting back into school... wish it didn't, it's a pain in the rear). An example of how odd some people can be about what classes will be taken by who - when I last worked full-time, we were staffing the school summer fair (as you do), and my year group partner teacher was on one of the stalls. Now, at this point - even the STAFF didn't know the following year staffing arrangements - but a bunch of parents had got together, analyzed the pattern they thought they saw of which classes went through which path in the school, and decided they'd second-guessed the head and that they were going to have my year group partner that following year. Three of them walked up to the stall, and stood, staring at her for a good 5 minutes, when asked what was up, replying something like "oh we think you might be our children's new teacher so we wanted to look at you." It was flipping weird, and also completely wrong - teachers moved year groups (some heads like to do this - even, shock horror, moving staff from Y6 to reception... Y6 isn't where the cleverest teachers always go by the way - just generally league tables mean there's more at stake there, and some staff really don't want to go up to Y6), classes had to be allocated according to numbers and floor space (the great legacy of open plan schools - random walls everywhere and strange variations in classroom size), some children moved classes, teachers came and left... their kids got me and not the teacher they thought they'd sussed out.

I think that's the other reason heads do do things like this - because you get lots of people making judgements and trying to second guess. It's always interesting to see how many parents view teachers swapping year groups and going down to reception as some kind of demotion (we don't get paid according to the size of 'em!). It just means that the head wants to put certain strengths in different year groups that year - it might be they want to put a music specialist in to have a push on music in Y6, or they're trying to really focus on Art in the early years; or it might just be that the head doesn't like staff getting in their comfort zone and moves them every two years come what may (how I hate these heads, moving classroom, finding new resources, planning from scratch just when you're really getting into the swing of a year group...). Parents tend to make assumptions and see things in staffing arrangements that aren't necessarily there, and then it gets passed around the school-gate chinese whispers, blown out of all proportion, invariably taken home to stew on on a Friday night and all weekend and you end up with an indignant bunch at the door on Monday morning.

Incidentally - my first degree, which I missed a first in by one flipping mark... was, of all things, Politics. I got onto my PGCE course based on the fact that I was obviously very literate and able to construct elaborate arguments with the English language. I'm still an incredibly good primary teacher (that's from inspection feedback, not me blowing my own trumpet - I'm the most lacking in self-confidence individual you'll ever meet), I just came into teaching through a somewhat unconventional route! (I left school vowing never to set foot in one of those places again as I hated my convent school so much - and got pulled back to it)